Sunday, November 30, 2025

The Unraveling of the Justice Department

This is the text of a New York Times article about the chaos in the increasingly misnamed Department of Justice.



“If we’re indicting people because the president hates them, that’s counter to the whole point of doing my job.”

Mike Romano, former prosecutor in the Public Integrity Section

“Our job wasn’t to engage in fact-finding investigations; our job was to find the facts that would fit the narrative.”

Dena Robinson, former lawyer in the Civil Rights Division

“They didn’t want the ethics office calling them up and telling them what to do.”

Joseph Tirrell, former director of the Departmental Ethics Office

The Unraveling of the Justice Department

Sixty attorneys describe a year of chaos and suspicion.

By Emily Bazelon and Rachel PoserPhotographs by Stephen VossNov. 16, 2025

President Trump’s second term has brought a period of turmoil and controversy unlike any in the history of the Justice Department. Trump and his appointees have blasted through the walls designed to protect the nation’s most powerful law enforcement agency from political influence; they have directed the course of criminal investigations, openly flouted ethics rules and caused a breakdown of institutional culture. To date, more than 200 career attorneys have been fired, and thousands more have resigned. (The Justice Department says many of them have been replaced.)

What was it like inside this institution as Trump’s officials took control? It’s not an easy question to answer. Justice Department norms dictate that career attorneys, who are generally nonpartisan public servants, rarely speak to the press. And the Trump administration’s attempts to crack down on leaks have made all federal employees fearful of sharing information.

But the exodus of lawyers has created an opportunity to understand what’s happening within the agency. We interviewed more than 60 attorneys who recently resigned or were fired from the Justice Department. Much of what they told us is reported here for the first time.

Beginning with Trump’s first day in office, the lawyers narrated the events that most alarmed them over the next 10 months. They described being asked to drop cases for political reasons, to find evidence for flimsy investigations and to take positions in court they thought had no legitimate basis. They also talked about the work they and their colleagues were told to abandon — investigations of terrorist plots, corruption and white-collar fraud.

Some spoke on the condition of anonymity because they feared retaliation against them or their new employers. We corroborated their accounts with multiple sources, interviewing their colleagues to confirm the details of what they described and reviewing court documents and contemporaneous notes. We also sent a list of questions to the Justice Department and the White House. “This story is a useless collection of recycled, debunked hearsay from disgruntled former employees,” a spokeswoman for the D.O.J. responded in an email. “Targeting the department’s political leadership while ignoring the questionable conduct of former attorneys who do not have the American people’s best interest at heart shows exactly how biased this story is, and further illustrates why Americans are turning away from biased, outdated legacy media platforms.”

Abigail Jackson, a White House spokeswoman, sent this statement: “These are nothing more than pathetic complaints lodged by anti-Trump government workers. President Trump is working on behalf of the millions of Americans who voted for him all across the country, not the D.C. bureaucrats who try to stymie the American people’s agenda at every turn.”

The attorneys who spoke to us for this project, many of whom have spent decades in government service, disagree.

On his first day in office, President Trump made it clear that lawyers loyal to him would lead the Justice Department. One of his personal defense attorneys, Emil Bove, became the temporary No. 2, and Trump nominated another of his lawyers, Todd Blanche, to take the position permanently once the Senate confirmed him.

Trump also undid one of the largest investigations in the Justice Department’s history by pardoning or commuting the sentences of the nearly 1,600 rioters who stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. The group included more than 200 defendants who were convicted of assaulting law enforcement officers.

 

Prosecutors said they were in disbelief when President Trump pardoned or commuted the sentences of Jan. 6 rioters. Ashley Gilbertson for The New York Times

Ryan Crosswell, Public Integrity Section, which handles corruption cases: When I saw it was Blanche and Bove, I was actually relieved. OK, it’s gross that they were Trump’s personal attorneys, but before that they were federal prosecutors in New York. They’ve done the job. They know the prosecutors’ code. We’re the only lawyers whose job is not to get the best result for our client. Our job is to get justice. Sometimes that means losing or walking into court and saying we made a mistake.

But then things were 10 times worse than I thought they would be.

Liz Oyer, pardon attorney: We had no knowledge that the Jan. 6 pardons were coming on Day 1. Everybody was concerned that our office was being completely sidelined from the review process.

Gregory Rosen, chief of the breach and assault unit of the Capitol Siege Section, which prosecuted the Jan. 6 rioters: When I was alerted to the pardons, a lot of thoughts ran through my head about how absurd this could get, but first I had to do my job. We had to ask, Did we believe the order was lawful and constitutional?

My team and I determined that it was. The president has the right to pardon people and commute their sentences. So then it was a blitzkrieg of hundreds of cases. We stepped to it.

I was numb. As career prosecutors, we don’t talk about our feelings. We’re not partisans. We’re public servants just doing the job. Early on, we stayed away from using emotional language about our own reactions.

Mike Romano, Jan. 6 prosecutor: Anyone who spent any time working on Jan. 6 cases saw how violent a day that was. I’d spent four years living with that day, the things done to people. It’s incredibly demoralizing to see something you worked on for four years wiped away by a lie — I mean the idea that prosecution of the rioters was a grave national injustice. We had strong evidence against every person we prosecuted. And I knew that if they’re going to wipe all of that away based on a lie, either I’ll be fired as retaliation or pretext or asked to do something unethical. Or both.

Until that point, I’d hoped the second Trump term would be similar to the first one, or similar enough for a while. Then the pardons came down and I knew, in light of that, there is no way I can stay.

Trump appointed Ed Martin, another longtime ally, as interim U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia. Martin had promoted Trump’s baseless claims of election fraud in 2020 and then turned to the cause of defending the Jan. 6 rioters. He had never worked as a prosecutor.

Martin soon fired 15 attorneys in the Capitol Siege Section who prosecuted the Jan. 6 defendants. They joined more than a dozen other prosecutors fired for working under the special counsel, Jack Smith, on the criminal investigations of President Trump. According to the D.O.J.’s new leadership, they could not be trusted to “faithfully implement” the president’s agenda.

Gregory Rosen, Capitol Siege Section: When 15 employees were fired from the Capitol Siege Section, I was the angriest I’ve ever been. Most of them were younger attorneys. I’d hired them. They came from firms, federal and state government, all over. But some naïve part of me thought, Maybe this is the new leadership’s “pound of flesh.”

Prosecutor, Capitol Siege Section: It was inconceivable to me they’d fire people for no reason except they’d worked on cases that were now disfavored. People like me, who are career attorneys, work within a structure. We don’t have much latitude. To be told that you are being punished for your decisions, when you were following guidance created by very talented and skilled prosecutors above you, which judges blessed for the most part — it’s completely bizarre. It flipped the culture of the institution. It’s a culture now of fear. And they are losing people all the time, very good people, who were the future of the department.

Peter Carr, senior communications adviser: I had never seen prosecutors targeted simply because the case they brought was something that current D.O.J. leadership did not like. How can you take these very difficult and challenging cases involving high-profile individuals with the knowledge that at some point in the future, someone is going to end your career because of it?

 

“I laughed when I found out we were demoted. But it was clear to me just how truly vindictive this would get.”

Gregory Rosen, former chief of the breach and assault unit of the Capitol Siege Section

Pam Bondi, another former Trump defense lawyer, was sworn in as attorney general. She issued a first-day flurry of 14 memos that radically redefined the department’s mission. One mandated that government attorneys “zealously defend” the president’s agenda, no longer giving them the latitude to decline to sign a brief or appear in court because of a personal judgment about a case — a longstanding practice in the department. Another pulled back on enforcing the Foreign Agents Registration Act, a watchdog law that requires people to disclose when they’re working for international powers.

 

Pam Bondi was sworn in as the U.S. attorney general on Feb. 5 and immediately set about redefining the roles of Justice Department employees. Eric Lee for The New York Times

Katie Chamblee-Ryan, Civil Rights Division: When Bondi’s 14 emails started coming in, one was crazier than the next. It’s hard to explain how shocking that was. In the Biden administration, there were all these checks in place to make sure we weren’t acting on our political biases. It was so by the book. It was too slow, to be honest. Now that seemed farcical.

Lawyer, Federal Programs Branch, which defends legal challenges against government agencies: Bondi’s memo on zealous advocacy suggested we could be disciplined or fired for pushing back on legal or factual claims we believed were unsupported. That threw up red flags for me. It was just completely improper.

Dena Robinson, Civil Rights Division: Some of us referred to them as “Pam Bondi’s mixtape,” both because they were so random and there were so many dropped all at once. One thing that stuck out to me was her insistence that we served at the pleasure of the president and that we were enforcing the president’s priorities. We swore an oath to uphold the Constitution.

Lawyer, National Security Division: Bondi signaled the Foreign Agents Registration Act would be enforced only in very limited circumstances after the Justice Department had done a lot over the last decade to give it teeth. At its core, FARA is a transparency statute, to let the American public know when foreign actors engage in political activities or try to influence U.S. discourse. If you’re concerned about foreign money and influence in politics, it’s a bad time to go dark.

In a memo, Emil Bove, as acting deputy attorney general, directed Danielle Sassoon, the acting U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, to dismiss corruption charges against Mayor Eric Adams of New York City. Bove said he ordered the dismissal in part because the pending prosecution impacted Adams’s ability to “support critical, ongoing federal efforts” to enforce immigration laws.

Sassoon wrote to Bondi, saying she couldn’t make a good-faith argument to dismiss the charges, asking for a meeting and offering to resign. Bondi didn’t respond. Instead, Bove took the unusual step of bringing the case to another unit, the Public Integrity Section (PIN), which is based in Washington and was created after Watergate to oversee enforcement of public corruption laws.

 

Emil Bove in April 2024, when he was a defense lawyer for Trump. He would later be named acting deputy attorney general. Dave Sanders for The New York Times

Prosecutor, U.S. attorney’s office for the Southern District of New York: The New York Times reported that Bove accepted Danielle’s resignation. That’s how we all found out. A lot of people were shellshocked and upset, and also proud, I think. My impression was that people thought the way Danielle handled it was right and admirable.

Ryan Crosswell, PIN: Bove’s memo to Sassoon was such a drastic change from anything we’d ever seen.

Mike Romano, Jan. 6 and PIN: Then Bove instructed the acting chief of PIN, John Keller, to dismiss the case. He resigned, effective that day.

The whole staff of PIN was called into a meeting, around 25 attorneys plus support staff. John told us what happened. We were stunned. Three of the four deputy chiefs of PIN were there. (The fourth deputy chief was on maternity leave.) I recall them saying they anticipated being asked to dismiss the case, and if so, they’d resign too. John was pretty matter-of-fact and stoic. You could tell he was affected, but he was trying to be a good leader. Some people cried.

Afterward, we went to a bar a couple of blocks from the office and started drinking. This is, like, 2:30 p.m. I had my one beer. I told John how much I appreciated what he’d done. I went home, and after that, the deputies were called into a meeting, asked to dismiss the case and resigned.

Crosswell: On the morning of Friday, Feb. 14, we got an email for a video call with Bove at 9:45. It was intense. The camera made clicking noises as it zoomed in on Bove at the end of a long table. It was surreal. We were watching one another’s reactions onscreen.

Bove’s spiel was short. He directed us to sign the motion to dismiss the Adams charges. They could have done it themselves but I believe they wanted our imprimatur. We all huddled in a conference room and tried to figure out what to do. We had an hour. There were three options. One, someone signs. Two, we all resign. Three, we call their bluff, don’t do anything and see if they fire us. I recommended Option 3. I’m still thinking we have civil service protections. But someone said if you don’t sign, they could say you’re insubordinate, and that could affect your security clearance, which could affect getting hired for other jobs. I backed off.

Romano: I thought 100 percent he’d fire everyone because no one would sign. Then one of the lawyers in the section agreed to file the motion to dismiss. I didn’t know him super well. He was older, on the verge of retirement. People saw it as protecting the rest of us, not trying to advance himself.

Crosswell: To my mind, he did something pretty heroic. Then there was a daylong negotiation over how the motion would be worded. It was important to us to be clear we were effectively put at gunpoint. Before, I said, I don’t want to leave because I don’t want a hack to replace me. But I started writing my resignation letter. I’m a Marine officer. Aside from how wrong it was to drop the case for political reasons, I felt so mad that our deputies had lost their jobs for protecting us.

Katie Chamblee-Ryan, Civil Rights Division: What happened to PIN was an alarm blasting everywhere. That’s when I was like, They’re just going to break every rule. They don’t care. That’s when private meetings started among staff to talk about whether you have more legal protections if you resign or are fired.

Trump signed an executive order initiating mass cuts to the federal work force at the direction of the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE), the effort led by Elon Musk to slash federal spending. The order called for large-scale layoffs and directed the heads of federal agencies to fill positions only with DOGE approval.

Defending the order in court, the government denied that the president had given DOGE authority over personnel actions. Judge Tanya S. Chutkan, who ultimately ruled in favor of the government, suggested this statement could be false. She reminded the Justice Department lawyers of their “duty to make truthful representations to the court” and issued a warning to them by citing Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, which allows lawyers to be disciplined for filings that aren’t based on sound facts.

 

Elon Musk in the Oval Office in February, when his Department of Government Efficiency was tasked with slashing spending and mass layoffs of federal workers. Eric Lee for The New York Times

Second Lawyer, Federal Programs Branch: When Judge Chutkan’s order came down, that was brutal. Our bar licenses would be on the line if someone associated with DOGE lied about things we had to represent in court. One of the lawyers in the case said he emailed the political leadership about what the judge said about possible sanctions and they said, “NBD” — no big deal.

I realized that the line attorneys were just pawns. If we got sacrificed on the way to taking these cases to the Supreme Court, that would just be how it was. Out of 110 lawyers who were in my branch in January, more than 75 have left. (The Justice Department said the point of the “NBD” email “was to assure the team they had done nothing wrong” and that about half of the 75 lawyers who have left have been replaced.)

The Justice Department asked a court to freeze a legal challenge to the Environmental Protection Agency’s decision during the Biden administration to tighten one of its most important air-quality standards, the limit on soot. The E.P.A. found in 2021 that the new standard would save thousands of lives and that the health benefits would outweigh the cost of compliance. The Trump administration put the litigation on hold in preparation for rolling back the regulation.

Sarah Buckley, Environment and Natural Resources Division: We made blanket requests to courts to put cases on hold where we were defending E.P.A. rules. The soot case was a real gut punch to me. Soot pollution is a major public health problem. The rule we were defending would reduce the number of people getting sick and dying, from pollution-caused diseases, by a lot.

We’d just had oral argument in December. I thought we were going to win. It felt like victory was being snatched away.

Ed Martin, the interim U.S. attorney in Washington, demoted seven senior supervisors and leaders in the office. It was the latest step in the purge of career attorneys involved in prosecuting the Jan. 6 rioters as well as two Trump allies, Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro. The administration had already removed at least a dozen senior leaders from their positions across the Justice Department, giving some the choice to join the Sanctuary Cities Enforcement Working Group, which was newly formed to target jurisdictions that refused to cooperate with federal authorities on immigration enforcement.

Tovah Calderonprincipal deputy chief of the Appellate Section in the Civil Rights Division: They assigned me and my chief to this new working group and then essentially didn’t give us anything to do. Most of us had no experience in immigration law. They took the most experienced, talented people out of their positions, and it had an immediate effect. They were able to change the work of our offices more easily without us there.

Gregory Rosen, Capitol Siege Section: I laughed when I found out we were demoted. But it was clear to me just how truly vindictive this would get. All of us collectively had over 100 years of prosecutorial experience. The brain drain was beginning. Maybe the Justice Department survives but loses all the experts.

I’d been promised the position of deputy of narcotics and violent crime in D.C. But instead I was demoted to the Early Case Assessment section to review arrest warrants, among other things. While the job is important, because this is where we initiate criminal charges, I assumed Martin viewed it as entry-level work and was punishing us.

 “One colleague said, ‘We have to feed something to the wolves.’”

Ejaz Baluch, former lawyer in the Civil Rights Division

Trump-appointed leaders in the Civil Rights Division began directing career attorneys to investigate the University of California system for antisemitism and employment discrimination. These investigations were overseen by Leo Terrell, a former Democrat turned Fox News commentator selected by the president to head his multiagency task force on antisemitism. They marked a new stage in the escalating attack on college campuses by the administration, which had already canceled billions of dollars in federal grants and contracts, and opened investigations into 60 universities for what it described as a failure to protect Jewish students.

Ejaz Baluch, Civil Rights Division: The way we did investigations drastically changed. Normally, line attorneys investigate cases and follow the facts and law on a nonpartisan basis. If we discovered a law was violated, we recommended a lawsuit to the leadership of the division. It was bottom up.

That process turned upside down. It was outcome driven. The prime example I saw was the investigation into the U.C. school system about allegations of antisemitism on campus. In March, Andrea Lucas, who Trump appointed to be acting chair of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, filed what’s called a Commissioner’s Charge, which is essentially a complaint of employment discrimination. It was my section’s job to investigate it. We were told: “You have 30 days to do an investigation and give us a Justification Memo” — which is what we write after we conclude there is a legal violation.

Multiple teams of attorneys went to Berkeley, U.C.L.A., U.C. Davis and U.C.S.F. Mostly they didn’t find sufficient evidence to bring suit. The teams were so scared that in real time, every day, they were summarizing and reporting up to office management, back to Michael Gates, the deputy assistant attorney general, to create a paper trail for how they were not finding evidence.

Julia Quinn, Civil Rights Division: Leo Terrell, who ran the antisemitism task force, sells merch, and one of the very few people in our office who stayed behind, who got in with the administration, bought a hat, one of his “Leo 2.0” hats. He had it in the background of a Zoom.

 Protesters at U.C.L.A. in March after the arrest of Mahmoud Khalil, a pro-Palestinian graduate student at Columbia University. Daniel Cole/Reuters

Ejaz Baluch: The only school, it became clear, where there might be a violation was U.C.L.A. One colleague said, “We have to feed something to the wolves.” The team concluded that the complaint process at the school was broken. Some professors we interviewed really did suffer on campus. They were harassed by groups of students.

But the D.O.J. demand letter to U.C.L.A. asked for $1 billion in damages. We thought, $1 billion? They are making that up out of thin air. There is no way the damages we found added up to anything like that amount.

Trump issued the second in a series of executive orders punishing elite law firms that had performed legal work for prominent Democrats or helped investigate the president’s ties to Russia and his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. The order accused the firm Perkins Coie of “dishonest and dangerous activity” and racial discrimination; it directed federal agencies to terminate the firm’s government contracts, stripped its employees of their security clearances and barred them from federal buildings, including courthouses. Perkins Coie and three other firms sued the Trump administration to block the executive orders, arguing that they violated the First Amendment.

Dena Robinson: One of my colleagues was pulled into working on the investigations. Every single time that this colleague pointed out factual or legal or ethical issues, the people running them just shrugged.

For example, the administration was saying they wanted to go after Perkins Coie because of Trump’s commitment to ending discriminatory D.E.I. policies. The idea of the investigation was that Perkins Coie supposedly engaged in illegal discrimination against white men. But Perkins Coie is an extremely white firm — only 3 percent of the partners are Black. When my colleague pointed that out, the leadership didn’t care. They’d already reached their conclusion. They continued instructing my colleague to just find the evidence for it.

Our job wasn’t to engage in fact-finding investigations; our job was to find the facts that would fit the narrative that the administration already had. That is not how the division worked. My colleague told me that the experience demoralized and eventually broke them. It ended up being the reason they left the Justice Department.

PIN, which in part oversaw corruption cases brought by U.S. attorneys’ offices across the country, was largely stripped of the authority to bring its own prosecutions. Most of the lawyers in the department were reassigned, eventually leaving only two, down from 38 at the beginning of Trump’s second term.

Mike Romano, Jan. 6 and PIN: At the meeting where D.O.J. leadership told our managers that PIN would shrink dramatically, one of them said the administration didn’t trust lawyers in D.C.

You can imagine the level of experience it takes to prosecute complex public-corruption cases. In New York, for example, the U.S. attorneys have the personnel, in size and experience, to do this. But some U.S. attorneys offices are much smaller. Maybe they don’t have anyone who has done one of these big corruption cases before. PIN was dedicated to these cases.

The acting U.S. attorney for New Jersey, Alina Habba — another former personal lawyer of Trump’s — asked to dismiss a case against two American executives charged with authorizing $2 million in bribes to obtain a construction permit in India.

Trump has long disparaged the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which was the basis of the New Jersey case, for supposedly putting American companies at a disadvantage. The law bars any company that sells securities like stocks in the U.S. from paying bribes to foreign officials. In February, he issued an order pausing its enforcement. (Later, scaled-back enforcement resumed with a smaller team.) The Justice Department also disbanded the team that prosecuted foreign officials for public corruption in their countries based on money-laundering in the U.S. — a team that recovered hundreds of millions of dollars stolen from poor countries.

Alexis Loeb, Money Laundering and Asset Recovery Section and later deputy chief of the Capitol Siege Section: There was a whole series of signals that the administration would de-emphasize the prosecution of corruption. Our laws gave American companies cover so they could resist shakedowns to pay bribes, and it’s way too black-and-white to say they create an uneven playing field. The laws were often used to prosecute foreign companies and individuals. People across the political spectrum saw promoting the rule of law abroad as important for promoting American interests and national security. You could see these ideals fall away quickly in the moves the administration made.

Prosecutor, Fraud Section: We were ensuring that anyone who used U.S. banking or our stock markets was complying with the law. I would meet with my foreign counterparts abroad, and they’d say this is a good form of American exceptionalism. It really did change compliance globally.

I don’t think anyone expected a full pause. It was so sweeping. And we were hearing all these reports of lobbying to affect how individual cases were being handled, at Mar-a-Lago and elsewhere. When the New Jersey case was dismissed on the eve of trial, that showed how much we weren’t in normal times anymore.

Harmeet K. Dhillon, a civil liberties lawyer who has represented several conservative activists and helped Trump challenge the 2020 election results, was sworn in as the head of the Civil Rights Division, which has a long history of redressing discrimination.

Dena Robinson, Civil Rights Division: Harmeet Dhillon didn’t seem to have any interest in interacting with career staff. We knew what she was saying on radio and podcast appearances about how the career staff didn’t want to do any of the work of the administration and that we needed to be cleared out.

Lawyer, Federal Coordination and Compliance section, Civil Rights Division: People had sound machines at their desks because they were convinced that everyone and everything was listening to us. It really was psychological warfare.

Julia Quinn, Civil Rights Division: Leadership started dismissing racial-discrimination cases. They wanted us to include language that suggested the cases had been brought under an illegitimate theory of discrimination.

Jen Swedish, deputy chief of the Employment Litigation Section, Civil Rights Division: To demand lawyers put language in filings suggesting that we had filed a frivolous lawsuit — we thought that was unethical. We worried about our bar licenses.

Brian McEntire, Civil Rights Division: My goal was always to become an attorney in the Civil Rights Division. That was my dream. I ended up working a lot on fire department cases. In Cobb County, Ga., we got information that even though African Americans and whites were applying for positions at about an equal rate over the previous decade, 90 percent of the hires had been white and 10 percent had been African American. And we didn’t quite understand why that was.

So we did an investigation and found out that there was a credit check that was disproportionately knocking out African Americans, particularly for student loan debt. And when we asked them why they were doing that, their response was essentially, Well, if a firefighter is deeply in debt and he’s fighting a fire, he might steal grandma’s pearls. So we brought suit.

In February, we got a note saying that the attorney general wanted us to withdraw the case. The next day, division leadership insisted that we put additional language in the notice of dismissal that implied it was all about reverse discrimination.

I didn’t know, quite frankly, if I could sign it. If I have to say what I argued before was illegal, then I could have been accused of misleading the court, which could have ended up with me being disciplined, sanctioned and my bar license revoked. So I did not sign it. My colleagues didn’t sign it. They pulled us all into a room, and we were all prepared to get fired because none of us were going to sign. My boss signed a modified version of the notice of withdrawal on our behalf.

We also had a racial-discrimination case involving the sole African American attorney working for the Mississippi State Senate, who, during the years she worked there, was paid less than half of what her similarly situated white colleagues were making. It was as clear-cut a case of disparate racial treatment you could find. The Senate stalled the case until Trump’s appointees could come in and order our section to drop it. When you talk about the rule of law and treating people fairly and equally, that’s obviously a slap in the face.

 “My recommendation was sought, I believe, to give a veneer of legitimacy to what was actually a political favor for a friend of the president.”

Liz Oyer, former pardon attorney

Liz Oyer, the former pardon attorney at the Justice Department, testified before Congress about the circumstances of her firing. Oyer lost her job after she refused to recommend restoring gun rights to the actor Mel Gibson, who had a misdemeanor conviction for domestic violence. The Justice Department said the disagreement over Gibson was unrelated to the decision to fire Oyer.

Liz Oyer, pardon attorney: In February, I was assigned to a working group that the attorney general created to restore gun rights to people convicted of crimes. I was asked to identify suitable recipients, so I looked for people who had committed minor low-level offenses in the very distant past and demonstrated exemplary conduct in the community for many years since their conviction. The pool was narrowed to nine people. And then I was asked to add Mel Gibson to the list.

Mel Gibson has a history of domestic violence, and I’m well aware from my experience and training that it is very dangerous for a person with a domestic-violence history to possess a firearm. As attorney general, Bondi has the power to restore rights without my blessing. My recommendation was sought, I believe, to give a veneer of legitimacy to what was actually a political favor for a friend of the president. I said I couldn’t recommend restoration. And then I waited for the other shoe to drop.

I finally got a phone call from Paul Perkins, an associate deputy attorney general. It was strongly suggested to me that Mel Gibson is someone who had a personal relationship with the president and that really should be all I needed to know. I felt sick. I literally did not sleep at all that night. I wrote back still not making the recommendation. At 2 o’clock that afternoon, I was in a meeting when I learned that I was fired. My deputy told me to grab my bag and literally pulled me out of the room by my elbow and told me in the hallway that she had gotten a call saying that there were security officers in my office waiting to walk me out of the building. I threw everything into a grocery bag and walked out of the office. I passed a lot of people I knew on the way out, and everybody was just looking on in shock.

Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, issued a statement saying that I was lying about the circumstances leading up to my firing. Then I was invited by the Democrats on the Judiciary Committee to testify in front of Congress. The administration sent armed U.S. Marshals to my home to deliver a letter warning me about testifying. A career employee who was still at the department helped me get it called off before they got to my house, where my teenager was home alone. I felt the purpose was to intimidate me. And I think it was intended to send a message to other department employees, too, who might be thinking about speaking up.

I needed a lawyer. I spent the entire weekend calling all of the lawyers that I know at law firms around D.C. Everybody I talked to was saying: “Thank you so much for what you’re doing. We’ll do whatever we can behind the scenes to support you.” But nobody actually wanted to sit behind me at a congressional hearing. Nobody wanted to put their name on a letter to Todd Blanche.

Unfortunately, only Democrats attended the hearing. There were no Republicans. It has really perplexed me that there’s not a shared level of bipartisan concern about what’s happening inside the Department of Justice.

A senior lawyer in the Office of Immigration Litigation, Erez Reuveni, acknowledged in court that the Trump administration wrongfully deported Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Salvadoran construction worker who lived in Maryland for a dozen years, to El Salvador, where he was being held in a notorious maximum-security prison. In previous administrations, including Trump’s first term, the government routinely worked to get people back when they were deported without legal authority. In this case, however, Bondi put Reuveni on leave and then fired him.

 Jennifer Vasquez Sura, the wife of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who was wrongly deported to a prison in El Salvador in March. Ken Cedeno/Reuters

David McConnell, director of the Office of Immigration Litigation: Erez was one of the more aggressive litigators over the years. He vigorously defended Trump 1 policies. I thought he’d be the go-to person for defending them in the second term. When he got fired, everyone doing district court work thought, This could happen to me. Traditionally, we didn’t have a lot of turnover in the office. But now I’ve heard that around 60 out of 320 attorneys have left since February.

Sarah Buckley, Environment and Natural Resources Division: When Erez Reuveni got fired, that really affected morale. He was working under the gun with his clients to say, This isn’t a reasonable way to proceed in court — what’s a reasonable way? And they punished him for it.

Ryan Crosswell, PIN: To do our job, you have to be willing to do the right thing when no one is watching. If prosecutors are just going into court to win at all costs, think of all the other things taking place you’ll never know about.

“He was working under the gun with his clients to say, This isn’t a reasonable way to proceed in court — what’s a reasonable way? And they punished him for it.”

Sarah Buckley, former lawyer in the Environment and Natural Resources Division

The Associated Press obtained an internal memo sent by Harmeet Dhillon, the Trump-appointed head of the Civil Rights Division, instructing voting-rights lawyers to focus on investigating voter fraud and to “vigorously enforce” a Trump executive order transforming how elections are run. The order purported to institute new voter-ID requirements, grant DOGE access to voter data and change the rules of absentee voting and the counting of absentee ballots. Courts later blocked parts of the order.

Anna Baldwin, Civil Rights Division: When the president issued his executive order related to voting, the Civil Rights Division was initially charged with defending it. But many provisions of it were an unlawful power grab — under our Constitution, Congress and the states set the rules of elections, not the president.

Lawyer, Voting Section, Civil Rights Division: The Trump administration had already made us dismiss our Georgia statewide lawsuit for intentionally suppressing Black votes. They didn’t ask for any information about it. They just told us to dismiss it. Then they issued a press release condemning the Biden administration for bringing the lawsuit — accusing us, the line attorneys, of fabricating evidence. It was obvious they didn’t look at the memo explaining what the evidence was.

 Election workers in Atlanta processing absentee ballots for the November 2020 election. Nicole Craine for The New York Times

Lawyer, Housing Section, Civil Rights Division: I was detailed to work in the Voting Section enforcing the National Voter Registration Act, which says states have an obligation to make sure that their voter rolls are accurate. We were tasked with obtaining states’ voter rolls, by suing them if necessary. Leadership said they had a DOGE person who could go through all the data and compare it to the Department of Homeland Security data and Social Security data. The idea was, We want to identify undocumented immigrants that have registered to vote. There was no pre-existing evidence this is a problem.

I had a concern that the data would be used not for purging voter rolls of people who aren’t eligible to vote but for broader immigration enforcement. I had never before told an opposing party, Hey, I want this information and I’m saying I want it for this reason, but I actually know it’s going to be used for these other reasons. That was dishonest. It felt like a perversion of the role of the Civil Rights Division.

A memo from F.B.I. officials ordered field offices to devote one-third of their time to immigration enforcement — which meant scaling back investigations related to national security, corporate fraud and violent crime.

Gregory Rosen, Capitol Siege Section: The F.B.I. had to divest serious resources from investigations of violent crime, gun and drug trafficking and child exploitation. Agents were diverted from those cases because they had to be on the street doing immigration roundups.

Prosecutor, D.C. metro area: It’s unprecedented to shift resources away from national security to this degree. Virginia and D.C. have the most important offices for counterterrorism and espionage. We get cases from the Middle East, long and complex investigations of terrorist threats from abroad and also domestically. In the Eastern District, there were 12 to 14 lawyers in the national security unit and now there are four, with no deputy or chief. In D.C., the national security unit is down about 50 percent. I was recently on the floor where F.B.I. agents work on domestic terrorism and it was completely hollowed out.

You have to have good, experienced, trained people doing this work on a daily basis. If you don’t, because you demand they do immigration shifts, there is real danger to national security and public safety.

Prosecutor, Ohio: We’re in northern Ohio. We don’t have an immigration problem here, but our agents — I.R.S. and Secret Service and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives — were getting detailed to Homeland Security. I was getting frustrated. We have a certain amount of time to bring charges, and often we don’t find out right away when a business is committing fraud, so we may lose a year or two. Then it takes time to do these investigations. Agents have to get the records and do the interviews. We don’t have time if they’re riding around trying to hit daily immigration quotas.

The Trump Justice Department withdrew from a consent decree with Minneapolis intended to address a pattern of racially discriminatory policing and excessive use of force, based on a D.O.J. investigation in the aftermath of the 2020 murder of George Floyd. The Justice Department also refused to stand by the factual findings about police abuses in Minneapolis and five other cities, retracting them from the record.

 Police officers confronting protesters in Minneapolis in May 2020, following the death of George Floyd. John Minchillo/Associated Press

Katie Chamblee-Ryan, Civil Rights Division: I’d left D.O.J. by then. I found out when I started getting a million texts. People were saying, “I’m sorry.” At first I had no idea what they meant. I expected something bad, but it was so much more total and cruel than I imagined. The new leadership was erasing our work.

Withdrawing the findings was completely unprecedented. And if you read the Minneapolis findings and the remedies we negotiated with the city, you’ll see they document retaliation against journalists or civilians who film the police, the use of weapons or tear gas indiscriminately in a crowd or law enforcement agents hiding their identities. And we’re seeing federal agents do all those things now.

There was a statement from the Justice Department in court saying you can’t do these things. They took that statement away, and now the federal government is the most prominent violator.

Trump pardoned a series of white-collar offenders, including Charles Scott, who had been convicted last year in Ohio of ​​helping the chief executive of his company manipulate its stock value.

Prosecutor, Ohio: Scott was sentenced to 42 months for a multimillion-dollar fraud. His family was wealthy. He spent all of two weeks in jail. That put a damper on a lot of the work we were doing, to know that someone who defrauded everyday folks in Ohio was able to find their way to a pardon.

Afterward, defense attorneys are telling us they can’t get their clients to take good or reasonable plea offers because they felt they’re better off spending their money on a political donation, drawing Trump’s attention, and getting the case dismissed or going to trial and getting a pardon.

Alexis Loeb, Money Laundering and Asset Recovery Section: When prosecutors bring a new case, do they need to think about how the Trump administration views the defendant? Those are not the kinds of considerations prosecutors are taught they should pay attention to — very much the opposite.

The Justice Department subpoenaed more than 20 doctors and hospitals that provide gender-related care to minors (including puberty suppressants, hormone therapy and surgeries) accusing them of having “mutilated children in the service of a warped ideology.” Trump had already issued a series of executive orders dismantling protections for trans people, banning them from military service and allowing open discrimination by federal workplaces. The subpoenas demanded patient information protected by privacy law.

Barbara Schwabauer, Civil Rights Division: It’s one thing to say we’re no longer going to stand up for trans people in this administration, we’re not going to file briefs in support of them. But to affirmatively go after them? I could not in good conscience continue to be a part of that. These are teenagers.

Lawyer, Federal Coordination and Compliance section, Civil Rights Division: Under the Biden administration, the Justice Department had joined private plaintiffs in suing Alabama over its ban on gender-affirming care. Now attorneys on the case were told by leadership to produce, on a rolling basis, all communication that they had with all parties and each other. It felt like we were being investigated by our own office. It was very threatening and ominous. Like, what do we think they’re going to do with that information? Nothing good.

Bondi fired around 20 prosecutors and support staffers who worked on the special counsel Jack Smith’s investigations into Trump’s efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election and his refusal to return classified documents after leaving office. One of the lawyers fired that day was Joseph Tirrell, the department’s top ethics adviser.

Peter Carr, senior communications adviser: These were support staffers, you know, the people who helped us with managing the operations of the office or with travel arrangements and reimbursements. You have paralegals who help prepare documents for discovery. The idea that someone can be terminated from the Justice Department for a case they were assigned to work on is something that has never happened before.

Joseph Tirrell, director of the Departmental Ethics Office: I had done some work for Jack Smith, so I assumed that would bring some heat down on me. But in my gut, I also think they didn’t want the ethics office calling them up and telling them what to do.

As a federal employee, you’re restricted from accepting gifts from anyone because of your position. I briefed Ms. Bondi about the ethics rules, and we talked about accepting gifts from employees in the department — for the most part, leaders can’t accept gifts from their subordinates.

We had about a 10-minute conversation about whether or not she could accept challenge coins from offices within the department. And that seemed to me an odd thing given everything else that we might have discussed. But that started to be a recurring theme with the A.G.’s office. They didn’t want to return gifts, they didn’t want to not accept gifts, whatever the source.

We got a request about some cigars from Conor McGregor and a soccer ball from FIFA. And I felt like I really had to go to the mattress to convince the A.G.’s office: You can pay for the item or you can return the item or you can throw the item away. There’s no other way to do this. (A Justice Department spokeswoman said that, after consulting with ethics officials, the soccer ball was accepted on behalf of the department and the cigars were destroyed.)

And then I got a call from the general counsel at the F.B.I. about changing exceptions to the gift rules because his boss, Kash Patel, felt like he should be able to accept more expensive gifts. I reminded him that his client was not Mr. Patel, but the United States.

Trump demanded the prosecution of several of his perceived political enemies, including the former F.B.I. director James Comey and New York’s attorney general, Letitia James. Based on the results of investigations by career prosecutors, Erik Siebert, the interim U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, told senior Justice Department officials that he did not think there was sufficient evidence to indict Comey or James. Siebert was forced to resign under pressure from Trump, who then installed one of his attorneys, Lindsey Halligan, an insurance lawyer who had never prosecuted a case before.

With no career attorneys agreeing to handle the case, Halligan personally asked a grand jury to indict Comey on charges related to allegations that he made a false statement to Congress. Halligan later obtained an indictment of James for mortgage fraud. Comey and James pleaded not guilty.

Mike Romano, Jan. 6 and PIN: No one should be charged with a crime because the president says “Do this,” and the people he has installed do what he says. The decision should be in the hands of people who know the evidence and have experience evaluating it and working criminal cases. If I was in that office, I’d wonder what the point is of exercising my professional judgment. If we’re indicting people because the president hates them, that’s counter to the whole point of doing my job.

Prosecutor, D.C. metro area: The thing is, Erik bragged about how close he was with Trump’s former lawyers at D.O.J. But it didn’t save him.

We all knew Erik said no, and the career attorneys recommended against it. So for Halligan to go ahead was enraging. The Eastern District of Virginia has a long reputation of being very proficient and competent, and it all vanished.

This is the whole problem with the White House directing criminal investigations. This is what you get. We won’t get the benefit of credibility from judges that we had, and I’m even more concerned about juries. I really fear the Justice Department — which has a good record of convicting dangerous, violent people — won’t see the same success rate, because people will think it’s not on the level.

Ryan Crosswell, PIN: The Eastern District of Virginia handles some of the biggest espionage and counterterrorism cases. Now it’s being led by someone who doesn’t know what she is doing.

The Times reported that Trump demanded $230 million in compensation for being prosecuted following his first term. Bondi and Blanche, Trump’s former lawyers, could decide whether Trump receives the money. (Asked about the $230 million demand, a spokesman for Trump’s personal legal team emailed, “President Trump continues to fight back against all Democrat-led Witch Hunts, including the ‘Russia, Russia, Russia’ hoax and the un-Constitutional and un-American weaponization of our justice system by Crooked Joe Biden and his handlers.”)

Bondi testifying at a hearing for the Senate Judiciary Committee in October. Jonathan Ernst/Reuters

Mike Romano, Jan. 6 and PIN: It seems comically corrupt. First, there was nothing inappropriate about this prosecution. Second, he won the presidency, so how was he harmed to the tune of $230 million? And third, he has appointed the people tasked with deciding whether he gets the money, and we’ve seen that his appointees do what he wants. It’s as if he’s robbing the Treasury to pay himself.

Prosecutor, D.C. metro area: It shows the president has no regard for ethics or rules or the appearance of impropriety or any of the guardrails we used to have before. It feels like this should be criminal, but he’s acting as if he has immunity, which he does, from the Supreme Court.

The Mar-a-Lago case was buttoned up. They begged him to give them the documents so it wouldn’t rise to the level of the F.B.I. going in to get them. To say there’s abuse here — it’s absurd.

Two career prosecutors in Washington were put on leave because of a sentencing memo they filed in the case of Taylor Taranto. Taranto was convicted in May of crimes including illegal possession of firearms and ammunition after he showed up in Obama’s neighborhood in Washington with two guns and hundreds of rounds in his van. The sentencing memo mentioned that Taranto reposted a social media post by Trump, which disclosed Obama’s address. The memo also said that Taranto was accused of participating in the Jan. 6 riot. (Trump pardoned him for the Jan. 6 charges before trial.)

The next day, another pair of prosecutors substituted a new sentencing memo that did not mention Trump’s post or Taranto’s connection to Jan. 6. At the sentencing hearing, Judge Carl J. Nichols, a Trump nominee, praised the prosecutors who were put on leave for upholding “the highest standards of professionalism” in the case.

Mike Romano, Jan. 6 and PIN: I’ve worked with both of those prosecutors, and Judge Nichols was right — they are excellent. With that sentencing memo, they were just doing their jobs. They were stating facts that were already known. Jan. 6 was relevant because the defendant’s participation in the riot is relevant to the risk of his future criminality.

Prosecutor, D.C. metro area: The D.C. office is hemorrhaging bodies, and they will probably get rid of two competent people for stating relevant facts that were on the record.

I don’t think people will truly understand what’s happening to justice in America until it impacts them. Even my family: My parents voted for Trump. I don’t think they see it as a priority. I mean, they’re not going to be criminally indicted anytime soon. When I tell them what’s happening, I don’t think they really believe me.

It would take a lot of restraint not to retaliate in the next administration. A lot of career people are helping the administration now. I have a list in my head, and if we get out of this, some of them I’m holding to account. A lot could be validly criminally probed. But the back-and-forth will not be good.

Dena Robinson, Civil Rights Division: I wouldn’t even call it the Justice Department anymore. It’s become Trump’s personal law firm. I think Americans should be enraged. We all deserve better than this. I keep telling my colleagues still working in the division that I’m holding the line with them from the outside. But I feel guilty that I’m not holding the line with them from the inside.

 

 

Wednesday, November 26, 2025

Wannabe Dictator, Autocrat, Authoritarian, King...It's All Semantics - Part V - Defies the Courts

The New York Times recently published an article Are We Losing Our Democracy? where they looked at various signs of dictatorship or autocracy and whether we had crossed that line. (I also provided the text in a Facebook post for those without NY Times access). I am going to look at each segment in turn and provide my own thoughts. 

#5 - An Authoritarian Defies The Courts

"Would-be authoritarians recognize that courts can keep them from consolidating power, and they often take steps to weaken or confront judges."

Donald Trump has spent his whole life getting away with illegal activities. Before he ran for president he routinely waited out people who took him to courtdragging out proceedings through technically legal means until the plaintiffs simply ran out of money. Even when the occasional civil ruling went against him the fines were a drop in the bucket and didn't materially affect his bank account. He used the same strategy when faced with criminal charges after he lost the 2020 election, although this time he wasn't waiting until the other side ran out of money, but he and his lawyers delayed and delayed, making any charges moot when he was re-elected president in 2024. Even the one set of felony convictions in New York carried no penalty other than the stain on his reputation.  

Trump has always viewed the law and the courts as something that applied to other people. 

Article III of the Constitution states that "The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish." It is sometimes misunderstood that it is only the Supreme Court that has the authority to rule on issues of national significance. The Constitution disagrees. While the Supreme Court does have the last word, federal district and appeals courts have the constitutional authority to rule whether any act, law or statute is legal. And they have been doing so.

Another misunderstood item is the "presidential immunity" that the Supreme Court has bestowed. It does not give the president permission to take extralegal or unconstitutional actions. It immunizes the president from criminal prosecution for actions taken as part of his official duties and carries a strong presumption that any action is official unless clearly outside a president's duties. Courts can still rule on the constitutionality or legality of specific actions and order that such actions be stopped. The problem is that the courts have no mechanism for enforcing their rulings against the president, since the technically the executive branch, headed by the president, is the enforcement mechanism. Trump and his team have stated that their position is that the courts have no authority to interfere in his exercise of executive branch functions. 

"Mr. Trump has baldly defied federal judges on several occasions. In March, for instance, his administration ignored a federal judge’s order to turn around airplanes that were deporting migrants to El Salvador. More often, the Trump administration has engaged in gamesmanship, going around orders rather than directly disobeying them. One example: After a federal judge blocked his deployment of the Oregon National Guard, the administration moved to deploy National Guards from other states instead.

So far, Mr. Trump has defied no Supreme Court orders and has pledged not to. But the justices have too often played into his strategy by failing to stand up for lower courts."

The Supreme Court, while ruling against him on occasion, seems more willing to dig for interpretations that support Trump, or to rely on overly technical viewpoints which results in legal gridlock. 

The mindset that the courts have no authority over the executive branch is what is disturbing. 

Part I - Stifling Dissent and Free Speech

Part II - Persecution of Political Opponents

Part III - Bypassing the Legislature

Part IV - Using The Military For Domestic & Political Purposes

Wannabe Dictator, Autocrat, Authoritarian, King...It's All Semantics - Part IV - Using The Military For Domestic Control & Political Purposes

The New York Times recently published an article Are We Losing Our Democracy? where they looked at various signs of dictatorship or autocracy and whether we had crossed that line. (I also provided the text in a Facebook post for those without NY Times access). I am going to look at each segment in turn and provide my own thoughts. 

#4 Using The Military For Domestic Control

Even democracies occasionally use their militaries on home soil. The military can keep order and protect citizens after a devastating storm. In extreme and rare circumstances, troops can enforce the law when local authorities refuse to do so, as happened in the segregated South in the 1950s and 1960s.

Authoritarians use the military much more frequently and performatively — to suppress dissent, instill fear and convey supreme power. Mr. Trump deployed the National Guard in Los Angeles to crack down on protests, despite local officials’ insistence that they had the situation under control. He attempted the same in Portland, Ore., and Chicago, before being restrained by federal courts. He has also begun to treat the military as an extension of himself, firing several high-ranking officials without good reason and summoning hundreds of leaders to Virginia to listen to overtly political speeches by him and his appointees.

In addition to the points that the New York Times made, I would add that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has, under Trump, become a quasi military/national police with branches of the military and National Guard working with ICE, blurring the supposed bright line between the military and law enforcement. Army and National Guard units have been stationed at the southern border since Day One, engaged in border security. 

Trump has stated that he envisions using our cities as training grounds for the military. The repeated use of the military to support ICE, and the more dangerous use in supposed law enforcement or crime fighting roles is not only illegal and unjustified, but is a clear effort to intimidate opposition office holders as well as any citizen protesters. 

Trump, via his Secretary of Defense, has purged the top ranks of generals and admirals deemed insufficiently loyal. He has purged the Judge Advocates General divisions of their most experienced legal officers. He has threatened to use the military against Venezuela and Nigeria. He has ordered the Navy to conduct extralegal executions of alleged drug smugglersarguably illegal orders. The specter of illegally ordered operations motivated six members of Congress, mostly veterans, to remind service members to refuse to obey illegal orders. In response the Secretary of Defense is considering recalling Senator Mark Kelley, a retired Navy Captain, and court martialing him. The FBI is reportedly "investigating" the other five. 

Trump is turning the military into his personal enforcement militiaridding it of anyone who would stand up to him. 

Part I - Stifling Dissent and Free Speech

Part II - Persecution of Political Opponents

Part III - Bypassing the Legislature

Tuesday, November 25, 2025

Wannabe Dictator, Autocrat, Authoritarian, King...It's All Semantics - Part III - Bypassesing the Legislature

The New York Times recently published an article Are We Losing Our Democracy? where they looked at various signs of dictatorship or autocracy and whether we had crossed that line. (I also provided the text in a Facebook post for those without NY Times access). I am going to look at each segment in turn and provide my own thoughts. 

#3 Bypassing the Legislature


This is one area where the Republican majority in Congress has enabled Trump's authoritarian tendencies, refusing to rein him in by asserting their authority. The Constitution makes clear, in Article I, that Congress alone has the "power of the purse".

From the NY Times article:

His administration has violated federal law at least six times by withholding funding authorized by Congress for librariespreschoolsscientific research and more, the Government Accountability Office found. He has gutted or dismantled congressionally authorized agencies like the Department of Education and U.S.A.I.D. He has also imposed new taxes — his tariffs — without congressional approval. Since the current government shutdown began, he has used donations from billionaires to pay troops and finance the construction of a ballroom at the White House.

Anyone who paid attention in social studies class, or even watched Schoolhouse Rock, knows that laws, including annual budgets, originate in Congress and are then sent to the president for his signature (or veto). Once the president signs, the bill becomes law and it's the president's responsibility to carry out that law, including implementing the budget. It's true that the president has wide discretion regarding how the laws are executed, but he does not have the discretion to ignore the law. He especially does not have the discretion to ignore the Constitution. 

Contextually, presidents have been chipping away at Congress's authority for quite a while now. The issuance of executive orders in lieu of Congressional action has become almost routine. Most of the time, executive orders are statements of policy, or formalize a president's priorities, but Trump's executive orders, starting with the blizzard of them on Day One, go far beyond that. The most egregious of them is the executive order overturning part of the Constitution! He actually issued an executive order claiming that the part of the Fourteenth Amendment guaranteeing citizenship to children born here would no longer be interpreted that way. He was editing the Constitution by fiat. I wrote an article about his Day One EO's where I looked at each one. 

In addition to attempting to reinterpret the Constitution, the bulk of his executive orders circumvented the law by empowering The "Department of Government Efficiency" (DOGE) to gut whole Congressionally authorized departments, fire thousands of employees, cancel contracts, eliminate inspectors general, and make it clear that previously passed laws and budgets don't apply to him. In the recent government shutdown he decided who would get paid and who wouldn't, even withholding available SNAP benefits. Of course, there's the tariffs, aside from the sheer idiocy of how they're applied, ordinarily tariffs, like all taxes, are set by Congress, not the president. Trump has declared an economic national emergency in order to justify usurping this authority.  

Some of the blame lies with the Republican leaders of Congress, who have failed to fight his power grabs. Their complicity does not change the fact that these power grabs have been illegal.

In full autocracies, legislatures often formally transfer some of their authority to the executive, and some congressional Republicans have proposed such changes.

Trump supporters seem to have no problem, either ignoring the authoritarian nature of his actions, or rationalizing that he "getting things done". 

It's still illegal, and it's still dictatorial.

Part I - Stifling Dissent and Free Speech

Part II - Persecution of Political Opponents

Thursday, November 20, 2025

The Supposed Release Of The "Epstein Files"

What exactly are "The Epstein Files"? Who has them?

In any criminal trial, the "files" are not just one thing or in one place. 

It starts with an investigation by law enforcement. The investigating agency keeps a record of all the interviews that they conducted, the forensic evidence, clues, theories and anything else that leads them to a conclusion that an arrest is warranted. Keep in mind that this is just the investigation; no matter how convinced the cops are of the solidity of the evidence, it still remains that in this country the accused is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. If the prosecutor believes that a case can be made and that a conviction is possible, a grand jury is convened. 

Grand jury procedures vary from one jurisdiction to another, however, the one commonality is that the prosecution presents their evidence that there is probable cause to hold a trial. There is no opportunity for the accused to present exculpatory evidence to the grand jury. Therefore a grand jury indictment is not the same as a conviction and doesn't always result in a conviction. For this reason grand jury investigations and testimony are usually sealed, especially if no indictment is returned. It's also a misnomer to characterize a grand jury as investigatory, even though that's what they are referred to. Grand jurors are not actually investigators. They are regular citizens who are selected randomly and if they have any law enforcement or investigatory experience it's a coincidence. Theoretically they can interview witnesses and review evidence, and even call for additional witnesses and evidence to be presented, but in practice they simply vote on whether what the prosecutors presented made sense. See this article regarding unsealing grand jury records.

If a grand jury indicts someone, that means that the legal system moves on to a trial. Some of the same testimony that was presented to a grand jury can also be presented at trial, but the grand jury testimony itself remains sealed. The accused can now present their side, and perhaps even get the charges dismissed. Once a trial has commenced, everything in it (with very narrow exceptions) is public record. Prosecution and defense each have their say and a jury decides who has made their case. In the case of Epstein, we never got to this stage because he died in custody. There are no "Epstein Files" from the trail, because he was dead before there was a trial. 

So what "Epstein Files" are there?

Epstein was indicted by a grand jury, so the transcripts from the grand jury exist. But the judge has ruled three times that the testimony will remain sealed. (Apparently the entire sealed transcript consists of testimony by one FBI agent.) What's left? The files from the DOJ investigation. 

The files from the DOJ investigation will now supposedly be released. I don't know what they will find, but no matter how complete the information, there will be suspicion that we aren't seeing everything. And there surely will be controversy over what we do see means. We already know that Trump and Epstein were friendsthere are dozens of photos and videos of them partying together. We know from the phone logs that many prominent people in politics and entertainment (including Bill Clinton) appear in the flight logs of Epstein's plane. Conclusions certainly have been drawn in all corners about this information. If there are ongoing investigations, what will we know about them? (AG Bondi has announced that she will comply with Trump's order to open investigations into the link between Epstein and Bill Clinton, among others) If Trump or other Republicans are implicated, will DOJ hide that information? If top Democrats were involved in criminality, wouldn't that information have already been shouted from the rooftops? Trump has no problem making unsubstantiated accusations against his perceived enemies. I predict that the release of the DOJ files relating to Epstein will be a huge disappointment. The FBI and DOJ, under both the Trump and Biden administrations have said that there is nothing in the files that warrants further investigation or prosecution, yet Trump has ordered AG Bondi to open investigations into prominent Democrats, including former president Bill Clinton. 

Trump and his sycophants have been inconsistent in how they talked about the Epstein Files. As far back as in 2015 Trump suggested that Bill Clinton was involved in Epstein's sex trafficking. One of Trump's campaign in 2024 promises was that he would release the Epstein files, suggesting that his political enemies were part of it. (Federal court orders prohibited the files from the Epstein investigation from being made public, which is why it had not been released under Biden's term or Trump first term)

In early Trump’s second term he must have decided that he didn't need to pander to the tinfoil hat part of his base, and began to brush off questions about the Epstein files that he had promised to release the files. He even attacked his own supporters, insulting them:

“Their new SCAM is what we will forever call the Jeffrey Epstein Hoax, and my PAST supporters have bought into this “bullshit” hook, line, and sinker, They haven’t learned their lesson, and probably never will, even after being conned by the Lunatic Left for 8 long years. Let these weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats work, don’t even think about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success, because I don’t want their support anymore! Thank you for your attention to this matter,”

Not only did Trump offend his own people, but Attorney General Pam Bondi announced that there really wasn't anything there, and that there was no client list after saying that one was on her desk. I'm not going to suggest that Democrats and other Trump opponents didn't also push for the release of the Epstein files, including the theoretical client list. Many people pointed to the multiple photos of Trump and Epstein together, just as Trump pointed to the multiple mentions of Bill Clinton in the records previously made public. But Trump is the one who continually brought it up and dangled the possibility of transparency for those who saw it as a major issue. 

My prediction is that the portions of the files that we end up seeing will contain nothing concrete. There will be hints that various partisans will interpret in a way that will support their own preconceived ideas. If there really was clear evidence that Democrats were involved, does anyone believe that Trump wouldn't have already released that information? If there are Trump allies involved, does anyone believe that we'll ever see those parts of the files. 

This was never about concern for the victims. It's always been a way for politicians to attack their opponents.  

 

Tuesday, November 18, 2025

Wannabe Dictator, Autocrat, Authoritarian, King...It's All Semantics - Part II - Persecution Of Political Opponents

The New York Times recently published an article Are We Losing Our Democracy? where they looked at various signs of dictatorship or autocracy and whether we had crossed that line. (I also provided the text in a Facebook post for those without NY Times access). I am going to look at each segment in turn and provide my own thoughts. 


#2 Persecution of Political Opponents

Trump reliably got applause throughout the 2016 campaign with by encouraging his followers to "lock her up", referring to his election opponent, Secretary of State Clinton. He never did, but it was a threat that always seemed to be hanging over the heads of his opponents. 

From the Times article:

"In addition to restricting speech and dissent, autocrats use the immense power of law enforcement to investigate and imprison people who have fallen out of favor. Mr. Trump’s Justice Department has become an enforcer of his personal interests, targeting people for legally dubious reasons while creating a culture in which his allies can act with impunity.

Following the president’s demands, his appointees have secured indictments of a few critics (including Attorney General Letitia James of New York and the former F.B.I. director James Comey and ordered investigations of others including Senator Adam Schiff of California. Some of these appointees were once Mr. Trump’s personal lawyers. Mr. Trump has also used executive orders to go after perceived enemies, including law firms representing his critics. And he has systematically fired government employees who played roles in earlier investigations of him or his allies.

Mr. Trump has simultaneously shielded his own supporters from legal consequences for their actions, including through blanket pardon of the January 6 rioters.

True authoritarians go much further than Mr. Trump has, but he has already targeted his opponents with legal persecution in shocking ways."

There's not much I can add to the words of the NY Times editorial, but it's getting worse, not better. Trump recently was quoted as saying, in regards to his political retribution:

"I hope they're looking at all of these people, and I'm allowed to find out. I'm allowed, you know, I’m in theory chief law enforcement officer.”

Well yes, in theory, but predominantly in the Unitary Executive Theory, which imbues the president with almost monarchial powers. The Justice Department, while under the authority of the president, has been viewed by presidents of both parties as functionally independent, with the president uninvolved in prosecutorial decisions. Thus it's the Attorney General, not the President, who is in practice the chief law enforcement officer. Trump's remarks seem at odds with his other remarks stating that the law is what he says it is and his serial lawbreaking since being re-elected. 

In addition to the targets named in the Times article, former Special Counsel Jack Smith and former FBI Director Christopher Wray have been threatened with investigations and former National Security Advisor John Bolton has been charged with retaining government documents. George Soros has been mentioned as a potential target, as well as an ill-defined number of liberal fund raising organizations. Just today, as Trump's name has featured prominently in thousands of emails to and from Jeffrey Epstein, Trump has ordered Attorney General Bondi to open investigations into Epstein links to several prominent Democrats, including former President Bill Clinton. 

Trump's campaign isn't some high-minded crusade against corruption and impunity by public officials. He is motivated by nothing more than a desire to get back at those who treated him "unfairly" or had the temerity to publicly criticize him. 

He has turned the government into a vehicle to exact revenge upon those who he perceived as having wronged him.

Sunday, November 16, 2025

The ‘Groyperfication’ of the G.O.P.

The ‘Groyperfication’ of the G.O.P.

Nov. 14, 2025

By Ezra Klein

Produced by Jack McCordick

this is an edited transcript of an episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.” You can listen to the conversation by following or subscribing to the show on the NYTimes appAppleSpotifyAmazon MusicYouTubeiHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

If, by the stroke of good fortune or by just being a normal person, you had not heard of Nick Fuentes before this month, chances are you’ve heard of him now.

Archival clip of Ben Shapiro: Nick Fuentes is odious and despicable.

Archival clip of Bill Maher: He’s what I would call a racist’s racist. He’s just this troll.

Archival clip of Megyn Kelly: Nick Fuentes has said a long list of very vile things.

Archival clip of Hasan Piker: He’s a booger-eating white supremacist Holocaust denier.

The reason everybody is talking about Fuentes is because Tucker Carlson — arguably the most significant media figure on the American right at this point — hosted Fuentes, a person he has feuded with in the past, for a very friendly two-hour chat about the problem of Israel and the problem of American Jews: whether or not they fit in this country or if their loyalties belong elsewhere.

Archival clip:

Nick Fuentes: Putting aside the tribal interest for the corporate interest — that’s absolutely the case, and that’s the only way the country is going to stay together.

Tucker Carlson: Exactly. That’s my concern.

Fuentes: And I absolutely agree with you. I would say, though, that the main challenge to that, a big challenge to that, is organized Jewry in America.

It was the kind of conversation you would not have heard among mainstream figures on the American right in recent decades. But something has changed.

What we are watching is a very old strain of the right vying for control of its future. This right goes back to Pat Buchanan and Charles Lindbergh and the idea that the right should be an ethnonationalist coalition that doesn’t have room for immigrants. That very much does not have room for Jews. That is really not comfortable with anyone who is not what they call a “Heritage American” — who doesn’t bow at the altar of the primacy of white Christians as the people controlling this country.

This has been a logic, an ideology, that Trump has broken into the mainstream, and that is now following itself to its full expression. If you buy into this, well, there is a place it goes — and now we are seeing more figures on the American right truly going there.

To talk about it, I wanted to bring back John Ganz. Ganz is sort of hard to describe. He has become a popular political theorist and historian. He writes the great Substack Unpopular Front. He wrote the book “When the Clock Broke,” about the politics of the 1990s and Pat Buchanan and David Duke and how they prefigure Trump.

But he’s also somebody who has been tracking very closely these ideas — where they come from in our country and the way they are taking hold on the right. So I wanted to hear what he thought now that they are breaking this far out into the open.

Ezra Klein: John Ganz, welcome back to the show.

John Ganz: Thanks so much for having me.

So let’s say that, blessedly, you’ve never heard of Nick Fuentes. Or maybe you’ve just heard of him in the last few weeks.

Who is Nick Fuentes?

Nick Fuentes, I would say, is the most popular representative of neo-Nazism in America.

Expand.

By his own story, he comes from a middle-class background in the suburbs of Chicago. He became interested in political activism. He was a fervent Trump supporter. Then he ran afoul, according to him, of some gatekeepers in the conservative movement — namely Ben Shapiro, who accused him of antisemitism when he asked questions about U.S. policy toward Israel.

Over the years, Fuentes assembled a following of other disaffected young men. He launched two campaigns that he called the “groyper wars” to pressure mainstream conservative figures to move rightward on issues to do with race, the L.G.B.T.Q. community and Israel — the subtext there being the Jewish question. Jews.

He’s not that subtext oriented compared to some people in this movement. I mean, he’ll talk about an admiration for Adolf Hitler. He doesn’t just talk about Israel. He talks about “the Jews.”

Archival clip of Fuentes: We have to go a little bit further than to say something’s up with the Zionists or Israel. It’s not Israel. It is the Jews.

Archival clip of Fuentes: Once again, remember who is responsible for it all: the Jews. They are responsible for every war in the world. It’s not even debatable at this point.

Archival clip of Fuentes: Hitler was a pedophile and kind of a pagan. Well, he was also really [expletive] cool.

There are figures here who it feels like they try to keep a mask on. He doesn’t.

He doesn’t. And I think that’s a key part of his appeal. I think that his viewers find that refreshing. They find it titillating, and they find it to be reflective of their politics.

You mentioned the groypers. What is a groyper?

Let me tell you a story of how I learned what groypers are.

I was writing a piece for The New Republic about five years ago about the right. I was learning about what young people on the right were thinking about: How did they respond to Trump, and what was the future of conservative media and elites in the Trump era? What was going to happen with the Never Trumpers? What would conservatism look like if Trump went away?

So I was looking at that, and in the course of this, I befriended some young right-wing guys, and they kept on talking about groypers.

I didn’t really know what it was, and then I realized that they were kind of a subculture of online trolls and marginal figures. They often had as their avatar or profile picture this kind of grotesque toad that looked like Pepe the Frog.

It’s my understanding that this subculture is larger than Nick Fuentes and not necessarily under his control or direction but that he speaks for them. He attempts to speak for them and to unite them into a political force.

What do the groypers believe? This is a very meme-heavy, online, trollish subculture that is endlessly dancing on the edge of: Oh, aren’t we just joking?

So pinning it down can be a little bit like trying to pin smoke. Because if you focus on a meme, it’s like: Oh, you have no sense of humor. But it’s a classic: First you’re making jokes about the gas chambers, then you’re thinking about sending your enemies to them.

 

It’s a little difficult for people to understand because we’re accustomed to thinking of politics coming from intellectuals, elites, media figures who disseminate ideas.

This kind of goes in the other direction. It bubbles up from message boards. It bubbles up from memes, jokes, ironic playfulness. But the text, not the subtext, of all of them is a constant barrage of propaganda that’s antisemitic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic — you name it. And also a lot of content that is conspiratorial, obviously, that sees shadowy actors running the government and is also deeply dissatisfied with the state of America and the prospects it has for people like them.

You wrote this piece — you’ve actually written a couple pieces — on the groyper-fication of the Republican Party. And you wrote:

Here’s the thing to understand: Every single person under, say, the age of 40 on the right is exposed to extremely high levels of groyper content every day in group chats, on their social media timelines, in Discord chats, etc. Groyperism totally suffuses the cultural environment of the right.

This point about the people under the age of 40, this idea that there is a pretty big difference in what the 20-somethings on the right are like and what the 50-somethings are like — I hear that from the right all the time.

So for people who do not have the texture of that cultural environment, what are you describing? What are they seeing? What does that culture, environment, look and feel like?

Well, just recently, there were a couple of leaks and political reports, one of them about group chats. It’s an environment where there’s a lot of sharing of memes and jokes — and repetition of memes and joking — about the Holocaust, joking about Hitler, joking about Black people and making jokes about slavery.

It’s just an anarchic indulgence of a sadistic id that usually involves the humiliation of minorities or women.

A lot of the energy of this, and a lot of the way it would get defended, is that the big enemy of the right in the late 2010s, early 2020s, was the woke mob, cancel culture, the thought police, the gatekeepers.

And you would hear this described — joking, but a provocation — as showing that you can say what the cultural enforcers don’t want you to say.

Richard Hanania, the dissident right figure and intellectual, describes it in “The Based Ritual”: People on the MAGA right get together and keep upping the ante to show that they’re not part of the establishment — they’re part of this counter-revolutionary force.

How do you think about the interplay between whatever that was — because there was a culture that emerged in response to censoriousness — and then its movement into actual belief?

I think that was a way that people could justify to themselves what they were seeing on an everyday level. Some people could say to themselves and to others that they were participating in a cultural revolt against the censorious state of affairs. And their interest was to tear down those norms and to open a space of freedom.

Freedom to do what? — is the question. Just to say and do racist things? I don’t know.

So I think it created a structure in which these memes spread rapidly and made it so people who may have been uncomfortable with it or may have found that at variance with the way they were raised to look the other way and say: We are, in a sense, playing around.

The first thing that does, it seems to me, is break down an immune system that people have. And you can’t extricate this from Trump.

If you have any hint left of that attachment to old norms and mores and courtesies, then you can’t be a true Trumpist. Because he doesn’t attach to any of that.

So you begin demonstrating a cultural affinity to that kind of politics of provocation and politics of no rules. Once you’ve done that, then you actually don’t have that immune system anymore.

So the question becomes: If you don’t believe in the establishment and you don’t believe in any norms, how do you decide what to believe? Because you’re breaking down the immune system that was supposed to protect against people like Donald Trump.

Yes, absolutely. I think your point about Trump being the originator of this is important.

When Trump appeared in 2015 — and people seem to forget this for some reason — there was a lot of talk about the “alt-right,” a term that’s not used very much anymore. But these people, who had previously been on the fringes of American politics, greeted the arrival of Trump with rapture.

Yes, ecstatically.

Ecstatically. And they knew that this was their kind of guy. They knew that the things that he said would open a space for them. Even if he wasn’t precisely a perfect vehicle for their politics, it was a real big breakthrough. They saw it, and they said: OK, this is our chance.

Then we have a first wave just after Trump is elected, where you have these people crawling out of the woodwork. You have Richard Spencer, you have the Charlottesville, Va., riots.

Then there is kind of a backlash, and those people seem to get pushed out. There’s not that much talk about alt-nationalism and the alt-right anymore.

Trump also doesn’t really seem to be adopting some of their preferences in foreign policy. He makes some very tasteless remarks about Jews — but not the ideological antisemitism that the alt-right would want him to do.

So this thing kind of goes on the back burner, but it’s very much suffusing the culture of young right-wingers in the intermediate and lower ranks of the various bureaucracies, the various staffs of conservative institutions. It never really fully goes away.

But then something else happens. As weak as the gatekeepers are in this modern era, there are still people with keys to various gates. And by the end of Trump’s first term, Trump is banned on most of the major social media platforms. Certainly a lot of these figures are banned on them.

As Trump makes his return — and then, very specifically, when Elon Musk buys Twitter, renames it X and functionally takes off all of the guardrails — then the ability of all this to flood into the conservative nervous system really changes.

I want you to watch a clip from Tucker Carlson here that I think is interesting.

Archival clip of Carlson: Unfortunately, for the guardians of the old system, the old Republican Party, people have been allowed to describe it accurately. Mostly because Elon Musk opened up X. And when he did that, you get all kinds of filth and nonsense and lies, but you also get some truth. Actually, quite a bit of truth.

And one of the main things that people are telling the truth about that they didn’t tell the truth about before is that our foreign policy really doesn’t have much to do with what’s good for the United States. And once those words have been uttered, they can’t be taken back.

Carlson here is talking about Israel. Maybe he’s not entirely talking about Israel, but the dynamic he’s describing — of Musk taking over X as a hinge point — seems true to me. Does it track for you?

Absolutely. All of these figures re-emerged after they had been pushed out, and they created a media ecosystem that is suffused with these ideas.

First of all, a lot of people online are looking for information. They’re looking to understand an extremely complicated world, and they have a sense that perhaps the establishment views are either misinforming them or are just flat-out boring.

Then they discover a narrative about things that’s more appealing, simplifying, seems persuasive —

Exciting.

Exciting. And also it cannot be discounted that Fuentes, in particular, is extremely entertaining.

They gravitate toward these crackpot ideas.

Look, U.S. support of Israel is a perfectly legitimate topic to dispute and to have differing views about and to criticize. More and more people are coming around to that position. They saw what was happening in Gaza, and they were deeply upset by it. And they look for commentary and opinion on that.

And the commentary and opinion that they get is not what The New York Times is saying or what The New Yorker is saying or even left-wing outlets like The Nation. They get Nick Fuentes, they get Candace Owens, they get all these crackpot views about it that take that discussion about real-world issues — and a mixture of rational discussion and commentary that’s actually somewhat sophisticated, I would say in Fuentes’s case — and then channel that into propaganda for antisemitism.

I think it’s important to realize that not everyone is aware that they’re being propagandized. They are in an information environment where this is what they see, and it becomes normal. In a sense, they get captured.

People love to talk about the liberal elite bubble. There is an equivalent bubble of the hard right. So that brings this deformed diversion of the public sphere that Musk allowed to happen — and I think, one could argue, intentionally.

I want to get at a bit of back story here before we get into the Tucker Carlson-Nick Fuentes interview. Because this is not the first time Nick Fuentes has broken through to the mainstream of conservatism.

There’s a very famous dinner at Mar-a-Lago, I believe, where Donald Trump is dining with Kanye West, a noted antisemite. And Kanye brings Nick Fuentes.

At the time, Trump looked like the past of the party. People think he’s on his way out — it’s going to be Ron DeSantis in 2024 or someone like that.

And I think they also buy the idea — which Trump says afterward — and I take as even plausible — that he doesn’t really know who Nick Fuentes is.

I think people buy that Trump talks to a lot of people. And one reason I think this is breaking through in the way it has been is twofold: You don’t have any of that deniability on Carlson’s side. And now, everybody understands that the future of Trumpism is up for grabs.

How would you describe the role Tucker Carlson plays on the right now?

I think that he strives to be a person of great influence in directing the policy, staffing, messaging of the Republican Party. To a certain extent he is. He has deep ties to people in the administration.

He helped get JD Vance named vice president.

Absolutely. He’s a figure. It is more helpful to interpret him as a politician.

I agree with this.

He understood the direction of the Republican Party and remade his entire image of himself to fit in with it. He has been very smart about that, and he realized the old institutions are not what they used to be. Does it really matter whether he’s on Fox anymore? Apparently, not very much.

His creation of a new persona really is the story of the transformation of the Republican Party.

At this point, how would you describe what Tucker Carlson’s politics are? What pole of right-wing ideology does he seem to represent?

He represents a tradition that’s sometimes called isolationist, which views America’s entanglement with foreign alliances and interventions in other countries to not necessarily be in our interest. Not necessarily dovish, but definitely: The United States should definitely apply force when it wants, when it needs to, in its own very direct self-interest.

I believe that he calls himself a Christian. I believe he represents a Christian nationalism, which is non-Zionist or anti-Zionist. Again, there are some roots in that of the old right, that go back prewar.

He is very hostile to immigration. He seems to have a very strong sense of white ethnic identity and believes that it’s a problem for the country if there are too many nonwhite immigrants.

Forgive me if I’m misremembering this: Didn’t you do an interview with the son of a Ku Klux Klan member?

Oh, my God. I’m so glad you brought that up. I was working on a piece in 2020 about the conservative movement, and Tucker was a big part of it — his transformation into a right-wing populist.

I got a remarkable quote from someone who was the child of Don Black, a Ku Klux Klan leader and a big figure in the white nationalist movement.

The person I got the quote from, just to be clear, left the movement and was highly critical of it.

Here’s what they told me:

From the perspective of my family, he’s making the same points they’ve been trying to make their entire lives, but much better; he’s found a wider audience, and the ideal method of expression for many of the same ideas. My father’s a little baffled still that it’s Tucker Carlson, someone who he always never liked because he saw him as a shill for the Bush administration and the Iraq war, that’s bringing white nationalist ideas to the Fox audience.

I was not a very experienced journalist at the time. This was the beginning of my career. I got this quote, and I brought this to my other sources for this story, who are young people on the right. I thought I had something dispositive — something that showed that Tucker Carlson is playing around with things that you really shouldn’t, that he’s moving in a very disturbing direction. They shrugged. They didn’t care.

I found that to be shocking and disturbing, and I think that anecdote says a lot.

I also think — and I think this is very important to understanding Tucker and the role he plays: He understands something Trump understands, but not everybody does, which is that the modern right is driven by attention even more than the modern left.

Trump has remade the modern right around an attentional economy. And there isn’t somebody behind Trump as good at attention as Trump is. JD Vance certainly isn’t.

You don’t have to be the president to be the leader of MAGA. It is very plausible to me that you would have a JD Vance nomination — but that actually the next leader of MAGA is Tucker Carlson.

I think Tucker Carlson is trying to be the authentic voice of MAGA, who, because he doesn’t have to do all the political coalition work, can be “purer” than someone like JD Vance, who I think fundamentally agrees with Carlson at this point but has to maintain, or attempt to maintain, viability in Michigan.

Absolutely. Here’s the thing: I think Carlson views himself in that role, for sure. Tucker Carlson was sort of the median conservative Republican to a certain degree. He toed the party line on most issues — Iraq, American foreign policy ——

He was on MSNBC.

He was on MSNBC. He also tried to present himself as a kind of reasonable conservative.

He was like a good-time, libertarian rich kid.

Yes, there’s that, too.

It’s interesting: There’s a degree that there are costume changes here. He takes the bow tie off. He now has this more folksy look: checked shirts, in this cabin, etc. He’s cultivating an image of himself as down to earth and folksy and not part of the establishment.

It’s hard to take when you realize he is the product of it.

But there’s something important to understand about Tucker Carlson’s turn to antisemitism, in particular. I believe that antisemitism functions as an epoxy for elites who don’t really want social changes that would affect their prominence and, in fact, who want to shore up their prominence and need mass support and need a target and need a story about economic dispossession, a world that doesn’t seem to make sense. That serves their interests.

You see this in a lot of different places.

You see it in Russia. The czarist regime invented antisemitism for this purpose. “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” is created in this regime that’s feeling the pressure of a mass population that’s becoming dissatisfied with it, and it creates antisemitism as a way to rechannel that energy.

You see this in France, where you have an aristocracy and a clergy that is pushed into old institutions, sees its prominence in the society losing out. It’s losing its world, and then it needs to find a mass politics, a way to attack its enemies. Antisemitism becomes very useful for that.

So antisemitism always works to create a kind of coalition. There’s a street gutter, crackpot antisemitism. Then you have what you could call more respectable antisemites: Let’s say, Charles Lindbergh — a person who was highly respected, a great hero to many Americans, but who had a racial view of the world and found antisemitic ideas persuasive.

Henry Ford.

Henry Ford.

So you had these respectable antisemites and crackpot antisemites. And their coming together, I would say, is the creation of an actual antisemitic politics.

This interview between Fuentes and Carlson is almost textbook. You have the antisemitism of the gutter: Fuentes. And you have the antisemitism of a declining aristocracy: Tucker comes from this preppy background. His father was an ambassador, his stepmother is a Swanson heiress.

He sees an America that’s not the way he wants it to be. It’s declining, it doesn’t look the way he looks, it has norms that he doesn’t share. And you have Fuentes, who dropped out of college, comes from a modest background. He is dripping with resentment to a world that he feels doesn’t have a place for him.

A self-described “proud incel.”

Yes. It’s also very interesting that he does not try to hide or pretend that he is not socially maladjusted in some way. That lends him authenticity and makes people gravitate toward it.

This meeting between Tucker and Fuentes symbolizes the kind of recognition between these two groups. In that interview, in that moment, it is the most perfect encapsulation of antisemitic politics — declining aristocracy and a dissatisfied mob. Bring them together and you have a kind of coalition in itself.

Let’s get into that interview. I want to play a clip for you that almost felt, to me, like the heart of it.

Archival clip:

Fuentes: Israel is unlike every other country in the sense that, because the Jewish people are in a diaspora all over the world, there are significant numbers of Jews in Europe but also in the United States, and because of their unique heritage and story, which is that they’re stateless people, they’re unassimilable, they resist assimilation for thousands of years — and I think that’s a good thing.

I guess what I’m saying is that if you are a Jewish person in America, you’re — and again, it’s not because they’re born, but it’s sort of a rational self-interest politically to say: I’m a minority. I’m a religious ethnic minority. This is not really my home. My ancestral home is in Israel.

There’s a natural affinity that Jews have for Israel. And I would say on top of that, for the international Jewish community, they have this international community across borders, extremely organized, that is putting the interests of themselves before the interests of their home country.

And there’s no other country that has a similar arrangement like that. No other country has a strong identity like that — this religious blood-and-soil conviction, this history of being in the diaspora, stateless, wandering, persecuted.

And, in particular, the historic animosity between the Jewish people and the Europeans. They hate the Romans because the Romans destroyed the temple. That’s why Eric Weinstein goes to the Arch of Titus and gives it the finger and takes a picture. We don’t think like that as Americans and white people. We don’t think about the Roman Empire 2,000 years ago. They do.

I don’t think that’s me saying: The Jews, the Jews, the Jews. I don’t think that’s me being hateful. I don’t think that’s me being collectivist. I think that’s understanding that identity politics, whether you love it or hate it, whatever you feel about it: It’s a reality that we live in a world of Jews and Christians, of whites and Blacks. These identities mean something to us, and they mean things to each other, and we can’t sort of wish them away.

And it feels like white people and Christians are the only ones that do that.

Carlson: There’s no question about that. Your last point for sure. One of the reasons they do that is because they’ve been taught to hate themselves, of course, since the Second World War.

All right. That’s what you might call a rich text.

How do you read it?

Well, Fuentes is an extremely talented rhetorician and communicator, and he does a few things. He presents a vocabulary that does not sound shocking to people. He uses words and terminology that wouldn’t frighten people — that sounds like a rational discussion of politics, a rational comment on politics.

And then woven into this is all of the material of classic antisemitism: The Jews are an unassimilable group, self-interested, internationally organized very tightly and all talking to each other and working as one mind, who don’t have the interest of their host at heart, have their own interests at heart and are animated by a deep hostility to the people who surround them, hatred toward Christians and white people, so on and so forth. That is classic antisemitism.

But he keeps on saying things like “That’s a good thing” or “I don’t think that’s me being hateful.” He presents it as if he’s having a discussion of politics like any other.

The other move in there, in addition to: The Jews are obsessed with the Romans — which, I have to say, I don’t feel very obsessed with the Romans.

I kind of like the Romans. [Laughs.]

But the other move in there, which you see a lot on the right and a lot on the white-identity right, let’s call it, is: Look, the Jews are just practicing their identity politics — don’t we just have to practice ours?

That final move, which is the one where Tucker says: Well, there’s no doubt about that. We white Europeans, the “Heritage Americans,” we’re taught to hate ourselves. There’s been no rational self-interest since World War II. That is, I think, a very fundamental move of Trumpism.

That’s the bridge of antisemitism to Trumpism. The MAGA right has spent years saying that the whole left plays identity politics, and it’s time for white people to stand up for themselves: You’re getting all this anti-white racism, and the Jews are the danger to that. If they’re going to practice their politics, you have to practice yours.

Precisely. At the core of the Nazi ideology is a social Darwinistic view of the world divided into almost different species of beings who are engaged in an endless war with one another. The Jews are a particularly important part of that worldview. They are the most threatening of these beings.

And trying to launder biological essentialism about the nature of the political through what sounds like normal interest-group politics like: In America we have coalitions, we have representatives of different ethnic groups who advocate on each other’s behalf. Well, there’s a Congressional Black caucus. What’s wrong with that? Why shouldn’t white people do that?

It is a different kind of politics. The idea is that this group is impossible to assimilate. And also national unity — the success of the nation, its health — is impossible to accomplish without their expulsion.

This is the view that Fuentes continually hammers on.

There is a lot here that’s tricky to talk about because you’re at this endless morass of the intersection of antisemitism and Israel.

One move I’m seeing from a lot of people on the right at the moment is: Why should we be talking about what this Rumble influencer thinks about the Jews when the left is electing Zohran Mamdani? When there has been these years of debate about antisemitism on the left?

I’ll say this superclearly: I’ve met Zohran. I voted for Zohran Mamdani. I don’t think there’s anything antisemitic about him at all.

But I think you see, in the way he has been treated, and then also what is happening on the right, a structural distinction that is worth understanding. Anti-Zionism on the left often pushes toward what I would call liberalism: a belief that all people should have equal rights, that there should be universalism. There’s a different version of it if you’re more socialist and Marxist. But the left tends to push toward universalism. And a lot of the anger at Israel, much of which I think is merited, is the way it portrays universalism for the Palestinians living under its control.

On the right, it’s pushing toward ethnostate politics — that the fundamental argument and a way in which modern Israel has tried to create new coalitions is to say: Hey, we’re all ethnostates here. But once you buy into the ethnostate framework, then the fact that you see Jews as an ethnic other in your society pushes somewhere very different. It pushes toward ideas of expulsion, pushes toward ideas that they’re a fifth column within, that they are leading your country to portray its actual interests, that they have dual loyalties.

But there is this weird thing where there’s been a rise of Jewish figures who want to embrace ethnostate politics. You have Yoram Hazony, who is Jewish, lives in Jerusalem and is the founder of NatCon, going to the NatCon conference — which he started — saying: Look, you don’t have to like the Jews to be a national conservative.

Archival clip of Yoram Hazony: Nobody ever said — and this is for my Jewish friends: Nobody ever said that to be a good NatCon, you had to love Israel. Nobody ever said that to be a good NatCon, you had to love Jews.

One point of anger I have with a lot of people on the right who have been playing footsie with this for a long time is that once you embrace the ethnostate concept, this is where that leads.

Well, I certainly am of that opinion. Let’s take this from another angle. The way you’re talking is a little highbrow. It’s in terms of intellectuals like you or Hazony. But let’s look at this from the ground up.

You have a conservative movement that has embraced, as you said before, an extremely provocative tone — a tone of open bigotry in certain cases. The deal that the pro-Israel right thought it could make is: We can engage in a good deal of racist demagogy. We’re OK with it, especially, maybe, directed at Islam. But the line that we draw is when it happens to Jews, when it turns into antisemitism.

That is not a consistent position. That is an extremely self-defeating position.

So when I talk about groyper-fication, I don’t mean to say it’s only that people with these extremely specific views about Israel and Jews are taking over the right. It is more that there’s a general atmosphere of moral anarchy, of acceptance of extremely hateful and divisive views. And, as we’ve discussed, there’s no immune system. There’s no barrier to antisemitism.

Well, that also goes to the energy that the modern right — MAGA, Trumpism — generates from transgression. Once you have begun to exhaust the energy of transgression about how you talk about immigrants, Trump comes down the escalator and says they’re sending rapists and murderers over here. There’s a big outrage. But now, being much more anti-immigrant on the right, that’s de rigueur: Who cares?

Once you have moved past a bunch of the energy on dancing around racism, once you have moved on traditional gender roles, this is the boss battle of Western speech taboos.

Right, right, right.

This didn’t begin last week or two weeks ago. You saw Elon Musk respond to somebody laying down a conspiracy that it’s Jewish elites pushing immigrant voters to take over the country by saying: You’ve really spoken the truth here.

You have a lot of the podcast bro faction that’s turned more right — like Joe Rogan — bringing on revisionist historians asking: Was Germany really the bad guy in World War II? What have we not been told about that?

You bring these things together — that you want to build an ethnostate, and you are ideologically opposed to there being anything you can’t talk about, and you make your money and your attention on these algorithms — it’s almost a hydraulic process toward antisemitism.

The thing about a kick, getting excitement from it: Sartre said it’s amusing to be an antisemite. Mamdani, for example — who some people say is an antisemite because of his positions on Israel — he’s very careful to say: I’m not an antisemite — and to express sensitivity to Jewish concerns.

And go to synagogues. I mean, Mamdani is a liberal.

OK. Yes, exactly. But whatever you think is at the heart of his politics, he does not Jew bait. He is not practicing in politics that are based on the enjoyment of the harassment and getting a rise out of Jews, in other words.

Fuentes absolutely does. Tucker does, to a more subtle extent. Candace Owens does. That also attracts people who feel powerless. They are very attracted to it because there’s someone you can harass and pick on. It’s part of their strategy to take over the right — to do this workplace harassment against their Jewish allies, to bait them, to get them to overreact, to unsettle them.

The other thing you mentioned is that the taboos are breaking down because World War II and the Holocaust is a long time ago, and the generation that experienced that is gone, and the politics that were created out of the consensus that it created is disappearing.

Some of it is just the passage of time.

Again, this is tricky to talk about, but you can’t get away from how much Israel post Oct. 7, and the war in and the flattening of Gaza, has destabilized politics around this everywhere.

I think the ways in which it has created tensions on the left have gotten most of the attention for the past couple of years. But in fact, it’s cracking open the right. You hear it in Carlson’s Fuentes interview. You hear it in the questions getting asked of JD Vance at various events now.

Archival clip of audience member: I’m a Christian man, and I’m just confused why there’s this notion that we might owe Israel something or that they are our greatest ally. I’m just confused why this idea has come around, considering the fact that not only does their religion not agree with ours but also openly supports the prosecution of ours.

Now that MAGA, on some level, has really rooted itself in this semi-isolationist, very much “America First” position, this young, very online right, one, looks at what has happened in Gaza and, I think, correctly, sees it as immoral. But, two, asks: Why are we involved here at a time when we’re pushing Europe out on its own? When we are aggressively insisting that we have no stable alliances except for what is directly in our self-interest at a given moment.

There are ways — many, many, many ways — to be anti-Israel without being antisemitic. But there is also a way in which the desire among Jews to say that what Israel is doing can never be connected to antisemitism breaks apart.

I never quite know how to talk about this, except that I feel like we’re all living through it right now.

It’s very difficult. To put my cards on the table, I’m on the left side of the political spectrum, and I’ve been extremely critical of Israel, and especially its conduct in the war. I believe they probably committed a genocide and absolutely extreme war crimes. But what happened also was the creation of an enormous amount of free propaganda for antisemitic agitators.

And also a lot of people are becoming curious about U.S. foreign policy, history. There is a certain extent to which they’re grabbing a lot of people who otherwise would be getting involved in the political process in a really positive way. They say: Why is American foreign policy like this? Should we be doing this? What’s the history behind all this? Why are these people fighting? Why are they killing each other? They have legitimate and interesting questions, but instead that legitimate curiosity is being picked up by people who have another motivation here.

I don’t think that Tucker Carlson lost much sleep over the Arabs who died in Iraq.

Archival clip of Carlson: I’m not defending the war in any way, but I just have zero sympathy for them or their culture. A culture where people just don’t use toilet paper or forks.

And I don’t really believe it when he now gets very sentimental about people in Gaza.

Archival clip of Carlson: One of the reasons that I’m mad about Gaza is because the Israeli position is everyone who lives in Gaza is a terrorist because of how they were born, including the women and the children.

That’s not a Western view, that’s an Eastern view. That’s a non-Christian — that’s totally incompatible with Christianity. And so I hate that attitude.

It’s genocidal.

I think it’s highly cynical. I think when Fuentes expresses some of the most spiteful, dismissive attitudes toward human suffering you could imagine on his show, and then he gets very sentimental about this issue.

Archival clip of Fuentes: This is just a straight-up genocide. These people are starving. They’re literally dying. It would be formally called a famine, except that Israel will not let any international personnel inside the Strip to assess this, to make that declaration.

That is to drag in people to think: Well, these people have a heart, and they’re interested in the same topic as I’m interested in. I think it’s highly cynical.

I think one way you can tell if these views are motivated by impartial analyses of American foreign policy or much more partial views about the Jews is whether or not they tend to coexist with unrelated anti-Jewish conspiracies.

In some ways, what I found most telling was another clip from the Carlson-Fuentes interview:

Archival clip:

Fuentes: With OnlyFans, it’s like having a TikTok. It’s like: Here’s my Linktree, here’s my Instagram account, here’s my Facebook account, here’s my YouTube, and here’s my OnlyFans.

Carlson: Why would any of this be legal?

Fuentes: Well, like you indicated, maybe there’s an intelligence benefit to that.

Carlson: Yeah.

Fuentes: Maybe there’s a political benefit to that.

Carlson: Well, why wouldn’t you arrest the people who run something like that?

Fuentes: It should be if you had a Christian government.

Carlson: Or how about just a government who cares about its people? I mean, is Iran a bigger threat or is OnlyFans? Iran’s not turning my daughters to prostitution.

To even parse this clip, you have to know that one of the big antisemitic conspiracies of this era is that Jews, in general, and maybe the Israeli government, in particular, is behind a lot of porn.

Archival clip of Fuentes: The reason the Jews run the porn industry, I think, is because they’re not Christian. And not only are they not Christian, but they’re against Christianity. And the people that were the pioneers of porn, they are quoted as saying: This is like a middle finger to God.

Kanye West just talked about this. David Duke has talked about this.

And here you have Fuentes and Carlson sort of gesturing at this: Maybe there’s an intelligence benefit to all this porn we’ve got out there. And: Now, if you had a real Christian government, we wouldn’t allow it.

That’s where, I think, you see something else is happening in the soil, as opposed to just old-school isolationism on American foreign policy.

Yes. Every dissatisfaction with the modern world, every social problem, you relate back to that issue. That’s the explanation for it. It simplifies every single social issue, and it makes a recognizable enemy responsible for it. That’s not new.

You have that same thing going back in European antisemitism, blaming every single social problem back to the Jews.

I think one of the things that has unnerved me most in the last few weeks was a tweet from Kevin Roberts, the head of the Heritage Foundation and the architect of Project 2025. Roberts got himself in a lot of trouble — we’ll talk about it — for immediately coming out and defending Carlson.

But around the same time, he had Jonathan Haidt, the critic of the internet, at Heritage to talk about porn and digital addiction and other things.

Roberts sends out this tweet, saying:

Thank you, Jon Haidt, for reminding everyone at Heritage yesterday that tech tycoons like Leonid Radvinsky and Solomon Friedman are profiting to the tune of millions by preying on America’s young men and women. We are proud to be in this fight with you. It is time to arrest, prosecute and convict the sick perverts behind OnlyFans and PornHub.

And the key thing about this tweet is you could have chosen to single out no one — or if you’re going to single out only two people, there are a lot of people you might choose, like the C.E.O. of OnlyFans, named Kylie Blair. But Roberts, who is at the center of establishment Republican politics, the head of the Heritage Foundation, chooses these two people with the very Jewish names.

It was very hard for me not to read this as Roberts, or whoever’s writing for him, pointing toward some affinity with this part of the right subculture.

I think you’re absolutely right to pick up on that. Pat Buchanan used to do this. What they used to say about Pat Buchanan is he always talked about Goldman Sachs but not Morgan Stanley.

And Pat Buchanan always, when he was opposing some U.S. foreign policy thing that had some consensus behind it, would mention Kissinger, he would mention Richard Perle, he would mention those guys. Would he mention Jeane Kirkpatrick? Would he mention Alexander Haig? No. Somehow those names were not important.

So continually hammering on that is a big part of their politics. It’s the center of their politics.

But it just struck me — and this is true for Roberts and the way he responds to a lot that’s happening, where you might ask: Is this just the attentional side of the right? Is this just the people who were trying to create big events for the YouTube algorithm or for the X algorithm? Maybe it begins there, but then you see it jump these blinds.

You also have the Kevin Roberts response to the Carlson-Fuentes interview:

Archival clip of Kevin Roberts: My loyalty as a Christian and as an American is to Christ first and to America always. When it serves the interest of the United States to cooperate with Israel and other allies, we should do so — with partnerships on security, intelligence and technology. But when it doesn’t, conservatives should feel no obligation to reflexively support any foreign government, no matter how loud the pressure becomes from the globalist class or from their mouthpieces in Washington. We will always defend our friends against the slander of bad actors who serve someone else’s agenda. That includes Tucker Carlson, who remains and — as I have said before — always will be a close friend of the Heritage Foundation. The venomous coalition attacking him are sowing division. Their attempt to cancel him will fail.

He’s in a bit of hot water for that now.

Yes, he is. But that was his first instinct.

Yes, I think that’s his first instinct. He wanted to defend Tucker, who I think he views as an extremely important part of the conservative movement and the right wing now, and wants to maintain a relationship with him, obviously.

The Heritage Foundation is essentially part of the nervous system of the conservative movement. It’s one of the important think tanks that comes up with policy, that supports the work of intellectuals and elites in the conservative movement.

Watching that and watching the institution seem to break in that direction was remarkable. And that caused a firestorm. He has apologized, he has walked it back. His friend Yoram Hazony flew in from Israel to sort things over.

It was a very weird video, and it struck me as almost coming from sci-fi. I was so taken aback by it. And then he falls back on — what they all fall back on now is anti-cancel culture, anti-wokeness. Which means: There are no standards anymore. We don’t cancel people.

But there’s another interesting part of this when he says, “My loyalty as a Christian and as an American is to Christ first and to America always.”

One of the things that you see when you begin diving into the fissures on the right about this is, for some time, there’s been a fairly close embrace between evangelical Christianity and Israel. And that has, in some ways, solved this coalitional problem on the right.

And what you hear Fuentes doing, what you hear these people coming up and asking JD Vance questions doing, what you hear Tucker doing, is really saying: That doesn’t make any sense.

Archival clip of Carlson: And then the Christian Zionists who are, well, Christian Zionists — like, what is that? Right? And I can just say for myself, I dislike them more than anybody, because it’s Christian heresy, and I’m offended by that as a Christian.

The attachment of evangelicals to Israel is a particular current in evangelical Christianity — dispensationalism. It’s one that some argue has very deep roots in the American past, because of Calvinist ideas, and American Christian Zionism going back to the founders. And there’s something to that.

But this emerged really as a mass phenomenon in the 1970s, where evangelical Christians are looking at what’s happening in Israel as signs of the coming apocalypse, and that becomes extremely popular. Israel is befriended, is cultivated, because they think it is about to bring about the rapture and so on and so forth.

I’m not sure how much of a hold dispensationalism has on younger evangelical Christians anymore. It seems to be something that’s, like a lot of the things we’re discussing, of older generations.

So I think that appears to be changing. I agree with you.

But this goes to what you’re talking about with Roberts. He did have to walk this back. He apologized. He said he let Heritage down.

This has led to a bunch of interesting reporting on what’s been going on inside the Heritage Foundation. And one thing you hear in that reporting is that there’s a big generational split.

Older staffers were furious at Roberts and were standing up in meetings, saying: Bill Buckley always knew that you had to eject the antisemites on the right.

I see you rolling your eyes.

Sorry.

It’s worth saying that the extent of Bill Buckley’s war against antisemitism has been overstated. Let’s put it that way.

But many of the younger Heritage Foundation staffers were standing up and saying: What did Kevin do wrong here? If there’s no room for what he said, is there no room for me?

I think this is getting at this very big thing, which is — and it’s what I sort of understood Roberts as doing — that you have a lot of people on the MAGA right trying to skate to where they think the puck is going. And what they see among their young, among their staffers, among the people they interact with on social media, is that where it’s going is around this much more, I would call it, white nationalist energy.

I think that’s a good read on this situation. Rod Dreher — who is a person of the far right but is horrified by everything that’s going on — wrote recently that a friend of his who has connections to the Republican Party in the conservative movement estimated that some 30 or 40 percent of young staffers were groypers.

I would say that the other half maybe don’t go to the last taboo of antisemitism — but definitely don’t have any problem throwing slurs around and trafficking nasty ideas about that. That’s my own commentary.

But I think that you’re absolutely right that there is a marked generation gap. The younger staff of the conservative movement are much more open to Fuentes’s ideas. Since their introduction to politics, they’ve been suffused, they’ve come up in an environment that’s filled with this. They don’t know a world before it. It’s their common sense, in a way.

So I think that they’re struggling with the fact that they’re probably going to have staffing issues. They already are.

And Trump has not criticized Fuentes.

No, he has not.

Trump can weigh in on things when he feels like it. He called Carlson crazy when Carlson criticized him for the Iran bombing. Trump has notably not weighed in on this.

Vance has only said he doesn’t like the infighting.

Well, there are a lot of reasons for that. I think that the main reason is: Look, Trump gets a lot of mileage out of seeming out to lunch or in his own world. The fact of the matter is: He’s a successful politician.

Yes.

He understands, and he has always understood from the beginning, that this extreme right is a constituency that he can’t really afford to alienate, that he has to court.

I think his administration knows that they can’t totally distance him from —

His administration is full of these people at this point.

Well, yes, that’s true.

But maybe it was not as true in the first term.

No, and I think they’re very interested in what this section of the right has to say, and they realize that this is part of their coalition. They cannot afford to alienate them and attack them.

There have been conservative figures pushing back. Ben Shapiro has, particularly, I think, gone to war and has tried to call this out and really tried to play the old, at least mythological, William F. Buckley role, trying to say: No, we don’t do this. We don’t go to groypers, we don’t go to Nick Fuentes. There are lines in our movement.

What have you thought of Shapiro’s response and the reaction to it?

First of all, one of the other main figures on the antisemitic right is Candace Owens, who was birthed within the Shapiro organization. So think about that.

Well, hired by Shapiro’s organization.

Hired by Shapiro. Cultivated, turned into a star.

Yes. Part of their trying to skate to where the puck was going.

Right, to get a younger audience, to get a — in the sense of conservatives — a hipper audience. And Shapiro says: We’re going to draw the lines here.

And Mark Levin at the Republican Jewish Coalition Annual Leadership Summit says:

Archival clip of Mark Levin: What do you mean we don’t cancel people? We canceled David Duke. Donald Trump canceled David Duke. We canceled Pat Buchanan. We canceled the John Birch Society. We canceled Joseph Sobran. We canceled pornography on TV. We cancel stuff all the damn time.

Hitler admirers, Stalin admirers, Jew haters, American haters, Churchill haters — you’re damn right we’re going to cancel them and deplatform them.

It’s too little, too late in my view. The opportunity has passed. Most of the people who saw where the Republican Party was going and didn’t like it and were clearsighted about it went into the Never Trump movement, which was not politically viable. It’s a group of people whom I consider to have kind of preserved their honor but who don’t have a mass constituency. The party is not there.

These people stayed with MAGA and everything it represented — the destruction of all these norms and institutions that would prevent something like this.

And I am also extremely angry and frustrated with the pro-Israel and neoconservative right for looking the other way when it came to the racist takeover of the right.

Zohran Mamdani is a perfect example of this. What has happened in the wake of the giant controversies that exploded about Fuentes going on Tucker? The leaks of the chats. You have major figures on the right who are trying to redirect the conversation about antisemitism back to Zohran Mamdani. They’re trying to make him the hate figure.

Like: Can’t we all come together?

Yes. And so Ben Shapiro says: When has Tucker really criticized Zohran Mamdani?

Archival clip of Ben Shapiro: The number of times that Tucker Carlson has mentioned Zohran Mamdani on his show since Oct. 5 is once, and it was in the context of Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson talking about the appeal of Zohran Mamdani.

Then Steve Bannon attacks Mark Levin. He says: These guys aren’t really MAGA.

And he has a point, because they weren’t with Trump from the beginning. And then he attacks Mamdani.

Archival clip of Steve Bannon: Mark Levin, instead of running your mouth, what are you doing in New York City? I tell you what we’re doing: We’re going to denaturalize Mamdani.

It directs this energy of racial hate that seeks to expel a racial other against the safer target. That strategy is not working anymore. That ability to keep the coalition by saying: Be as racist as you want, be as hateful as you want — but against designated enemies who are OK.

People ask a rational question: Why are those people off the table?

And then the answer comes back: Well, because Christianity, or because Israel represents Western civilization — or some kind of rationalization like that. And the antisemites say: That makes no sense to us.

And in a certain sense: Yes. Why not? If the world is divided into these racial groups, and this is the way you are, and we practice the politics that’s based on that, why make an exception?

As you say, these guys started as opponents of Trump. In 2016, Shapiro wrote:

Trumpism breeds conspiracism; conspiracism breeds antisemitism. Trump is happy to channel support of antisemites to his own ends.

OK, so Ben Shapiro — not a dumb guy.

If you go back and you actually read a bunch of what he said back then, it’s very, very, very prescient.

The other thing is: What’s the superpower they’re going to suddenly discover with which they’re going to do that? They couldn’t stop Donald Trump. They tried. Many of them tried. Ben Shapiro was an opponent of Donald Trump. Mark Levin was an opponent of Donald Trump. So they’re going to finally discover some new secret weapon?

In 2024, I don’t know where Levin was, but there was clearly an effort from Shapiro and others to make DeSantis the future.

Sure. I don’t understand where they suddenly think they’re going to find the weapons or the army that’s going to support them in this war.

Well, this is what I think is frightening when you look at their situation kind of coldly.

Their last, best hope is that they don’t believe Trump himself is an antisemite. Their last hope is Trump himself. And I mean, they’ll say that. When I had Shapiro on the show, he was more or less saying that.

But they’re all much more afraid of what’s coming next — of JD Vance, in particular. I think the view many Republicans hold is that Vance is quietly, functionally where Carlson is, that Vance is groyper adjacent, let’s call it.

Yes. I think that’s right.

There is still an old-line Republican Party to some degree. You know, Ted Cruz.

Archival clip of Ted Cruz: If you sit there with someone who says Adolf Hitler was very, very cool and that their mission is to combat and defeat global Jewry, and you say nothing, then you are a coward and you are complicit in that evil.

Lindsey Graham.

Archival clip of Lindsey Graham: I just want to make it really clear: I’m in the “Hitler sucks” wing of their Republican Party. [Laughs.] What is this Hitler [expletive]? I don’t know.

But it is the older Republican Party.

I think that they made a deal with the devil, in a certain way, and now they’re paying the consequences.

Obviously, it’s all very scary, and these are bad things, and the transformation of the Republican Party into this stuff is not good. It wasn’t great before, in my opinion, but now it’s really something else.

The other thing is: This might be a politics that ends up, when it’s exposed to the public, being too weird and too fringe. It has some mass constituencies. Will it do well in a primary? Maybe, probably. Will it do well with the rest of the public? I don’t know.

Well, it has done well in primaries before. I think this actually gets to something important. Your book is very much about Pat Buchanan and earlier strains of this.

For those who didn’t grow up in the politics of the 1980s and 1990s, or didn’t write a best-selling book on it, as you did: Who is Pat Buchanan?

Pat Buchanan is a major figure in the conservative movement. He was a member of the Nixon administration. He represented the ideological conservatives like the Buckley conservatives, the National Review crowd, within the Nixon administration.

He then went on to be a very important syndicated columnist and appeared on TV. He was a communications director for some time in the Reagan administration. An important loud voice on the right.

He ran two primary campaigns for the Republican Party, one in 1992, which my book focuses on, which wounded George H.W. Bush’s candidacy. So there was a constituency for his type of politics.

He has also been probably the most notable antisemite in American politics for a very long time.

I always think this clip of Trump talking about Buchanan is worth revisiting.

Archival clip:

Jay Leno: Now how about Pat Buchanan? What do you think of that? Now he seems to be the guy you’d have to battle for.

Donald Trump: Well, that’s true. He’s antisemitic. He’s anti-Black. He obviously has been having a love affair with Adolf Hitler in some form. I just can’t imagine this guy —

Leno: But I don’t want you to hold back. Tell me how you feel now.

Trump: I mean, I can’t imagine that Pat is going to be very seriously taken as a candidate.

That’s an earlier Trump incarnation, right? Flirting with a third party run for president.

We often talk about the way Trump has been very consistent on certain things, like trade, since the ’80s. But not on everything.

Archival clip of Trump: There was a man, Pat Buchanan — a good guy, a conservative guy. It’s not that we’re — you know Pat Buchanan. Look at that. Good guy. Wow. Young people, they know him.

Archival clip of Trump: Pat Buchanan, right? We know Pat Buchanan. He came in second in the New Hampshire primary. And for 45 years he made an unbelievable career of it. He was a hot item. He was on every show.

It’s been interesting watching so many of these figures — Nick Fuentes being one of them, but not by any means alone — Kevin Roberts, all of them — really rehabilitating Pat Buchanan.

I think the Republican Party used to pride itself on not going down Buchanan’s lane. It went down another lane instead — George H.W. Bush’s and then George W. Bush’s. But it seems like now Buchananism is winning.

That’s the thesis of all the work I’ve been doing for the past decade in my book. Yes, I think that’s true.

Actually, it was interesting. At the beginning of this presidency, I thought: Oh man, I got something a little bit wrong. It’s Pat Buchanan, plus you have to be nice to Israel.

They’re like: OK, we can be the trade stuff, the immigration stuff. But in order to keep the coalition together, we’re going to keep in place this reflexive support of Israel — partly to do with Jewish Republicans and partly to do with Christian Evangelicals.

And then when this exploded, I was like: Oh, well, I guess that never fully went away, and it wasn’t totally submerged, and this coalition wasn’t that stable.

Well, also it gets to this point that Buchananism has an internal logic, and when you embrace it, it becomes hard to embrace just 80 percent of its logic but not 100 percent of its logic.

There’s this book Buchanan wrote years ago called “The Death of the West.” JD Vance said it is the first political book he ever read. How would you describe the thesis of “The Death of the West” and how it relates to modern Republican Party politics?

It basically describes a world where the white race is submerged by the invasion of brown peoples, and that needs to be prevented by any means necessary. Essentially, it’s a work of polite white nationalism.

There’s a tremendous amount about fertility rates in it. Even reading it in the first Trump term, it was striking to me how much the modern right had fully absorbed this book by this guy who was pushed out to the margins — or it seemed so — for a long time.

But now, I think if you’re going to pick a founding text for MAGA — people talk about all kinds of different weird thinkers — but “The Death of the West” by Buchanan feels, to me, like a pretty fair center of the canon.

Critics of the right have often said there was a racial subtext to Western civilization.

In the way Buchanan used it, it’s not a subtext, it’s what Western civilization means: It means white people. It doesn’t mean Homer and Dante and Plato and so on and so forth. It means a certain racial stock that makes up Western people.

And the division on the right, right now, is: Are Jews part of that Western white people?

How much of this is all the internet and attentional dynamics? And as such, we are moving into this structurally, and there aren’t very good political answers to it?

You’ve said: One could even say that the internet itself is antisemitic. Which also was a provocative line.

You’ve been writing more. You gave a speech at the University of Chicago where you talked about the modern version of fascism as a response to the way the internet has destabilized the way we communicate and the political sphere.

How much do you see what we’re in as a structural feature of the medium on which politics — certainly political communication — now primarily takes place? What follows from an analysis like that?

The comment about the internet being structurally antisemitic is a very speculative theory of mine that I cannot defend right now. [Laughs.]

But, obviously, the change in the way people consume media creates the possibility for new communities to form. People who would generally be cranks and fringe people with a few audience members find mass audiences. There’s a component of that.

The internet is almost like the birth of cities. The way I talk and think about it is almost like urbanization. It creates an enormous amount of what you might call sanitary problems. It creates an enormous amount of waste, pollution and stuff like this. And we haven’t come to a way of deciding how we govern this new city.

It’s very interesting, though: Where do people get into this stuff? You mentioned pornography. It comes from this really seedy underbelly of the internet, the chan message boards — 8chan and 4chan, etc.

It comes from a community that consumes porn — very edgy porn, sometimes illicit porn. It came from the same underbelly — the sewage of the internet, from the gutter. It is the favorite ideology of the very people who sometimes have addictive relationships to those things and feel entirely disempowered to detach themselves from it.

They feel like they have no lives or future. The internet is their only life and future, but it also presents itself as a politics that would solve those problems: All of the things that happened because of modernization or the creation of these new structures, we have the answer to fix them all.

Fuentes openly says he’s one of those guys. He’s like: I’m a loser and an incel, there are no women in my life, etc.

But the way he does that and the way he attracts an audience and the way he entertains his audiences — when he has their questions come on, he sadistically attacks them. He makes fun of them. He teases them.

Archival clip of Fuentes: What do you mean, what do I think? That’s your question? Byron Donalds, some Black Republican benchwarmer gets up at the R.J.C. and says: I love Israel. I support immigration.

You say: What do you think about that?

What do I think about that? [Expletive], that’s your question? The show is like: We hate immigration, we’re against Israel. [Mocking voice.] Hey, so this guy says he likes immigration in Israel. What do you think about that?

That’s your question? What do I think about that? What do you think I think about that? You [expletive] idiot.

Because essentially that’s at the root of this. It’s about a certain type of powerlessness that comes to express itself in sadism.

There’s a degree of self-loathing among these people that also can’t be discounted. There’s a degree to which they have accepted their position as being outside of society, as being unrepresented, and they just want to burn it all down.

I have this theory about Twitter, which is that whichever political coalition is in control of it at a given moment is going to pay dearly for that.

I think that the left sort of had the wheel on Twitter around 2020. And by 2024, a lot of the positions that got taken for that reason, a lot of the culture that emerged on it, ended up proving a profound political loser.

I remember people on the left being terrified when Elon Musk bought it. But what I see is the right is becoming Twitter poisoned, X poisoned.

And that “guy in a basement making fun of his followers claiming to be an incel” politics — I’ve spent the last week immersed in prep for this, and you begin to think it’s the world.

Then you look up, and you kind of shake your head, and you remember it’s not, and most people don’t want this. The right seems so hooked into its own attentional drugs at the moment.

Yes.

JD Vance, who seems to want to be the future of the right, is very, very, very hooked into its weird subcultures, and he has said that himself.

One thing you hear Shapiro keep trying to say to them is: This is going to be a loser. And I don’t think it’s specifically the antisemitism — though, that, too. But the whole gestalt of craziness — like Laura Loomer and Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson — there’s just so much as they try to absorb this.

If I were to have some optimistic gloss on any of this — and I don’t feel great about it — it’s that’s a pretty weak politics, particularly after Trump, who has a showman’s capability and role in American culture.

I think on your point about Twitter being a mixed blessing — it’s extremely useful when you’re putting together the campaign and the coalition and about to launch an attack. And when you’re in power, you need to have normal democratic tools to understand where the electorate is at.

The types of explanations, ideas, memes on Twitter are a different reality, and it interprets what’s going on in the rest of the world in a very distorted way.

An election happens, there’s a negative result for your party. A normal political mind would say: Maybe some of our messaging is bad. Our policies are bad. The electorate is expressing issues with us. That gets metabolized in Twitter and creates all kinds of insane conspiracies and so on and so forth.

It definitely distorts what the notion of the right’s public is. That’s very dangerous because they’re living in another reality. But also, when they’re in a democratic society, it detaches them from the things that they could do to alter course.

I think that it’s still true that a lot of the things that we’re talking about are, as they say, very online and attract a kind of subculture. My only warning is that a lot of young people grew up online — a lot of people are very online. It’s not that different from the norm.

I think sometimes we can overstate how badly the young people are doing politically.

What I mean by this is: The 2024 election scared the hell out of Democrats about what was happening with Gen Z — and rightly so. Huge swing toward Trump.

So then when somebody like Nick Fuentes — self-described incel and brain-poisoned edgelord — comes up and says he’s speaking on behalf of these young men, there’s a tendency to say: Well, OK, I don’t understand these young men anymore — maybe he does.

If you look at who Trump has lost support among, it’s young people. He has cratered among young people. Look at how Zohran Mamdani did in the election among young men — incredibly well.

The idea that the center of Gen Z culture is Nick Fuentes is also wrong.

Totally wrong.

One thing you often see is that old people don’t understand young people, and so they are a little bit gullible about anyone arising with some amount of constituency, saying: I speak for the young now.

Young people care about the cost of living. They swing around based on that. I don’t think the Republican Party has the pulse of the young. It’s that it has the pulse of its online young — and that is a very malformed sense of even the young public.

Yes, I think there’s a lot to that. I do think, though, it must be admitted that this is a party with mass support, and it increasingly has tailored a message to try to get people who feel disaffected with the way things are going.

So if there are a lot of other shocks and there isn’t some way in which the country gets on a footing where people feel like they can be prosperous, where they can have decent lives and these pathologies continue, that politics is going to get an additional purchase.

It’s one of the big dangers with America’s two-party politics. If one of the two parties becomes extreme, then it doesn’t take that much for the extreme wing to come into power. You can take over a party with a fairly narrow part of that party being well-organized. Different candidates split support in the primaries, and all of a sudden, you have Trump in 2016.

Or maybe JD Vance loses in 2028, but then there’s a big recession, and Tucker Carlson runs in 2032 primaries — or somebody who’s Tucker-pilled or whatever it might be.

The issue you have there is that if the Democratic Party, for one reason or another, becomes unacceptable to people, then the fact that the Republican Party is run by groyper extremists — you make a couple of political moves to the center and hide it a little bit during the election, and then you’re in real trouble.

My sense of our politics now is that, on the one hand, the Republican Party is weakening itself and, on the other hand, the possibility of 20th-century comedy-style outcomes just keeps going up.

I agree with you. But, here’s the thing — every single election happens, and Americans say: This proves our theory of the case. The country has fundamentally changed. Here are the people who are important. Here are the people who are not important. This party has shown itself to be totally out of touch with the American people. This party is the wave of the future.

Then another election happens. That narrative is forgotten, proven to be false very quickly.

We don’t really know what the electorate looks like until Election Day, so we’re always guessing and saying: Well, there are a lot of these kinds of people.

We don’t know what messages are going to be successful. Things come out of nowhere. Things disappear. Coalitions are never permanent. They’re very fragile in American politics. They fall apart quickly.

As you mentioned, the loss of young people, the loss of independents — who weren’t watching Nick Fuentes — they were pissed about their groceries. They were pissed about not necessarily being able to buy a house.

I’m of two minds about it, too. I do believe that there is a weakening of the party’s mass appeal through its moving toward the other things. But my only worry about that is that these things have sophisticated techniques of propaganda to get mass support, and Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes are exhibiting those things.

They know what they’re doing. They are not the Nazis of yesteryear who were skinheads and put swastikas everywhere and scared people. They know how to deliver this message in a way that’s palatable, or more palatable.

My sense of things in America is that if a message comes along that is: Yes, there are problems with the establishment, but we need to make some changes to the way our economy works, and I don’t particularly hate or want to kill or harm anybody — that message is going to be a lot more successful to people because I think most Americans are not obsessed with sadistic fantasies of harming each other.

So I don’t think it’s an inevitability that those politics will take over, but I do believe there are conditions under which they become more appealing a stronger. It’s a lot of the kinds of social dislocations we’re experiencing now.

And then, always our final question: What are three books you’d recommend to the audience?

OK. I’m going to recommend two recent books and an old book, and they’re about this subject. This is not reading for fun.

One is “Taking America Back” by David Austin Walsh, which is a history of the right’s halfhearted attempts to police antisemitism.

One is “Furious Minds.” It’s a new book by Laura K. Field that is about MAGA intellectuals, the new right, and how they justify, explain and rationalize things that are going on.

And the third one is a very old book and a little bit forgotten. It’s called Prophets of Deceit: A Study of the Techniques of the American Agitator, and it’s by Leo Lowenthal and Norbert Guterman. It’s an extremely astute, detailed analysis of the techniques of antisemitic agitation and propaganda, especially in the context of the United States.

John Ganz, thank you very much.

Thanks so much for having me, Ezra.